COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

 EVIDENCE OF:

CHAIR OF THE EUROPEAN AND EXTERNAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE OF THE

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES,

TOM MIDDLEHURST

held at

St Georges Hotel, Llandudno

on

27^th March 2003

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I am Tom Middlehurst, I am the Assembly Member for Alyn and Deeside. I hold the Chair of the European and External Affairs Committee.

Well, I feel heavily out-numbered but I am sure you will be gentle with me. But, nonetheless I apologise first of all for the lack of some written information; I know you have had some information from the Secretariat that explains the role and remit of the Committee.

Can I say that I only became Chair of the Committee last November, hitherto it was chaired by the First Minister Rhodri Morgan. There was a conscious decision taken in the plenary session of the Assembly that Ministers should not chair Committees. So that is how I came to be elected as Chair of the Committee. I have only been in office since November and have taken three meetings of the Committee, whereas the Committee meets eight times a year twice a session.

I consider myself to some extent as being in a caretaker role. I am very conscious also that the National Assembly for Wales is new and there is the opportunity to perhaps steer the Committee in a way that it might want to consider it should go in the future. But, for the moment I will just address the paper that I have presented to you.

We are a Committee established under the Assembly Standing Orders. Standing Order 14 refers to the Committee's role which essentially is to consider the Assembly’s relations with institutions of the European Union, the method of informing and advising those institutions of the needs of Wales, providing the Assembly with the opportunity to liaise with Europe and with UK Government departments on European issues. Also the Assembly's method of procedures for the consideration of documents, issues and questions emanating from the Union; the institution having particular regard to the need for liaison with Members of the Parliament, and responsibility for scrutiny of European matters with particular relevance to Wales.

And finally, the Assembly’s relations with nations external to the European Union. That latter point came about more recently, originally the Committee was called the European Committee – it was recognised that given that our ambitions to promote Wales beyond the EU that we ought to have an opportunity to consider those issues in this Committee. Its remit was extended accordingly.

In the paper, there is a perhaps a picture of the scope and of the work that we have undertaken up until now as a Committee, you see it is fairly varied and diverse. The Committee is made up of 11 members, an all-Party group, and significantly I think, the leader of each of the political parties being present on the Committee. I think you have seen that the Committee has sufficient standing and importance to justify that decision.

There are also a number of standing invitees. All Members of the European Parliament are invited to attend every Committee meeting. Members of the Committee of the Regions and the Director and Wales European Centre in Brussels. Perhaps I might just refer a little further to the Welsh European Centre later in the presentation.

Also there is a standing invitation for Members who are appointed by the Assembly to sit on other European bodies.

We did on April 4th review the role and remit of the Committee and a series of actions was agreed. I think you have got the resulting issues in front of you. So perhaps I will not run through those Chair, other than if you wish me to do so. But that basically is the role and the function of the Committee.

I will be very happy to take questions from the panel and answer as best I can.

LORD RICHARD: I wonder if you can tell us about the severely practical side of things. How does it actually work? I mean suppose there is a proposal for a directive in Brussels, how do you get – when do you hear of it – what do you do?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I must admit that generally matters fall to the Welsh Assembly Government rather than the Committee in many ways. The opportunity for us to deal with those issues is through the ministerial scrutiny if you like. I am bound to say on that issue of scrutiny, it was not seen originally as a function of the Committee strangely enough. It was seen as advisory and supportive of the Assembly's overall objectives. But inevitably due to the nature of the work the Minister has to account for himself or herself, and in this case himself, to the Committee for his or her various actions.

Specifically, perhaps I will mention the Welsh European Centre which is perhaps a side issue but nonetheless it illustrates the sort of nature of the relationship that has developed. The Welsh European Centre was formally prior to the Assembly an organisation that represented an all-Wales interest in Europe. It came together I think as a necessity in the pragmatic approach to the needs of various organisations in Wales who felt that they ought to have a presence in Europe. It was supported by the Welsh Local Government Association, the Wales Development Agency, higher education, further education and other partners.

The Assembly also decided to support the Welsh European centre with funding and also nominated members to sit on the board. I was one of the original Members. Consequently, the decision to support to WEC was revoked by the Government, it decided to establish a Wales Government presence in Brussels and withdraw from the Wales European Centre.

Those issues – I mention all of that to illustrate that those decisions were of concern to the Assembly and had a de-stabilising effect on the Wales European Centre through the actions of Government. The European Committee took the opportunity to call the Minister to account for those sort of things which some Members felt were destabilising of what was in effect a going concern. I only mention that rather lengthy intro to the Welsh European Centre to illustrate the kind of issue we take up with the Minister.

But we have done very little in terms of the European directives. I am bound to say that it was the nature of the Committee under the Chair-ship of the First Minister - and it by no way means a criticism – it was rather a Committee that heard reports of his actions and experiences within Europe, within the European context and within the UK Government. I personally felt that we should be much more proactive in trying to represent a broader range of interests within Wales rather than this sort of noting and questioning of the First Minister on his actions.

LORD RICHARD: Can I interrupt you? I understand if you know the First Minister has been to Brussels and he comes or she comes back, then you have them in front of you and they have to account for what they have done. But at what stage do you have a role in actually formulating the policy that they take to Brussels in the first place?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well that is a crucial issue for the Committee. In the past I fear it has been marginal. I mean, it is Welsh Assembly Government driven and the Committees has always been marginal in policy development. I do feel that it is an area the Committee needs to address. I think that one of the great successes of the National Assembly for Wales has been the policy development role of in particular the Subject Committees, and I see no reason why Standing Committees such as the European Committee can't have a similar role and function in supporting Government actions.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Is it not a difficulty though in that the Standing Committee is effectively a Committee whose responsibilities lie across several other Committees as well. How does that policy development role work?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well, we have a sort of over-arching role on European matters but we recognise that each of the individual Subject Committees must and should take account of the European dimension in the context of any particular issue that is before it. They will have decided to pursue a particular policy review, whether it be Welsh Language or sustainable development or whatever, and as part of that review they will consider the European dimension. We think that is right and proper but we also think that information should be shared with the European Committee, so we can take a holistic view of the impact of any decision that the Committee might take.

TOM JONES: Also Tom, there will be some subjects that don't belong to the Subject Committee will there not – the governance and the convention and anything to do with constitutional changes? These will be non-subject related?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: We have obviously, because of the significance of the convention, had numerous opportunities to consider the impact on Wales and we have submitted a paper. I apologise we have not provided that paper, we will send it to you as a supporting document.

LORD RICHARD: Who did the paper go to?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: It went to the Government.

LORD RICHARD: To the Assembly Government?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes the Assembly Government then obviously onward to the UK Government.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Have you taken evidence in preparing this view on the convention or was it your own thoughts?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: It was largely the Committee's own proposals. Unfortunately the current Secretary of State was unable to attend the Committee on the day that we sat because our Committee dates are fixed. Peter Hain obviously had a long-standing diary commitment which made it impossible for him to come. But in fact it is very appropriate you should mention it because on Monday of this next week, Peter Hain will be joining an informal meeting at the Committee to discuss the convention, to brief us on his work and to take account of the Assembly’s views on the convention.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: How would that work if the Secretary of State was not the Secretary of State for Wales – was not the Government report sensitive of the convention?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I think the Secretary of State for Wales would be the person who would be accountable and would represent Government interests in Wales, I am pretty sure that would happen. In that way it would mean of course the Secretary of State would have to be fully au fait with those issues.

LORD RICHARD: Can I just come back to the mechanics of the thing, how you pull it together? On the convention your Committee has sat down, thought about it and produced a paper which has gone to the Assembly. Do you get a reaction back from them, do they come and say we are going to use this first paper or that they disagreed with this?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes indeed that did happen in the Committee and in fact because Ministers are part of the Committee; they're part of the process of developing the response, so it is almost pushing against an open door, but yes the Government could conceivably say we don't agree – but they did not as it happened. Again I think we saw that as a consensual approach, the work that we did on behalf of the Assembly was worked with the Ministers being part of the consideration.

LORD RICHARD: Would the Ministers be there when you produced it?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes indeed.

LORD RICHARD: The piece of paper.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: What I don't quite understand is why you have decided as a matter of policy not to look at individual EU proposals for legislation? Because it is only by getting into the detail that you can understand them and their implications. You had a review of the way you worked, you don't - of course there are 600 or 900 proposals a year, you can't conceivably consider them all but if you did five a year that would be a positive gain - if you prevent yourselves from looking at individual proposals it is all up in the air, it is too grand. It is the nitty-gritty of EU legislation that matters, it isn't the high sentences and the expressions of community fippy[?].

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes. I mean I take the point fully, you're absolutely right but we need to be selective about the impact of the particular directives on Wales. Subject Committees have a role, an important role in considering the impact of the directives on their subject area. And of course, the European Committee has an overview of all of those things as well.

I’m bound to say my problem when I come before you today is that I have had a very short shelf life on the Committee; I have only been on the Committee for less than two years whilst it has been a four-year programme. I can't say for certain the extent to which the Committee has involved itself in the directives but I am sure it has. But I can – perhaps I can send supporting information on that Chairman. I would certainly do that.

LORD RICHARD: Do you see your role as a scrutiny role as well in the sense of scrutinising not only the Ministers but actually looking at the flood of legislation that comes out of Europe?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I suppose the answer to that is yes. In practice it’s extremely difficult to find the time to address those issues. We meet twice a year, as a Committee. We do get an issues paper from Welsh Assembly Government.

LORD RICHARD: You meet twice a year.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Sorry, twice a term eight times a year. Twice a term, fixed meeting. And we do get papers from the Welsh Assembly Government at each meeting which address a whole range of issues and which gives an indication of the nature of the impact of a directive on Wales. So we can scrutinise Government on those issues when that is presented to us.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: You could vary date of the meetings of the Committee. It is up to the Committee to decide on its time of meeting.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Maybe.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Having an absolute eight meetings a year, it is a very severe constraint. Supposing you really cared about the convention and what the Government did – supposing you did. You might want to hear evidence from key people, from other people in Europe or from Neil Kinnock, all sorts of people. Well you couldn't, if you had only these eight fixed meetings and you want to produce a report fairly quickly, you could not do it. It seems to me there does not seem to be great flexibility.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: You're right there is not. There is not for a very good reason that the constraints on the Assembly Members are huge. I mean, the commitments are significantly heavy. And without diarying meetings very strictly, you find that Members because they’re members of other Committees as well, are unable to fulfil their obligations to either one or other Committee that they sit on. There are only – we will come to this later of course – there are only 60 Members of the Welsh Assembly and the call upon their time is very very severe. And it maybe unduly restrictive in fact but for very practical reasons, at least we can diary eight meetings a year, and they are fixed, and in that sense you know you can do a good deal of business because you are fixed on those dates and people are aware and available for those meetings.

LORD RICHARD: How many on your Committee?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: 11 members.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: What is the quorum?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: It has got to be four with at least one member from another party.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Other than the Government party?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes.

TOM JONES: The meeting next Monday night is – is it an extra meeting?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: It is informal in the sense I have responded to the wish of the Secretary of State for Wales. This is a very exceptional thing because he feels duly obliged to come to the Committee to explain what he has been doing on behalf of the UK Government and on behalf of Wales, and he is very anxious to do so. I have met Peter privately, and as he could not come to the Committee, he asked me to agree to an informal meeting; I was reluctant, I circulated members and unfortunately only a very small number are available. But we are going ahead with the meeting.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Just taking up that point you made a moment ago, in a sense the Secretary of State has not been acting on the part of Wales he has been acting on behalf of the UK Government. This is his first meeting with you to find out what the Welsh perspective is.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Absolutely.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: That has to be made clear.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: You're absolutely right. It is because he has got a two-handed role at the moment. He is Secretary of State for Wales therefore he's a UK Government Minister and provides access for Welsh Ass. Gov. to Westminster. But of course he does have prior responsibilities which the Prime Minister and has chosen to leave with him.

PETER PRICE: Can I take up policy scrutiny from another angle? I was looking at the earliest Standing Order provision and the activities against. I am looking at the final page: monitoring the impact of EU policies on Wales. And there are three examples given at the top.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes on the chart, yes.

PETER PRICE: On the chart. If we look at those three headings, top of page two, is duration of education, to the Euro large use [inaudible] preliminary points were these simply a matter of report or were there real investigations? And if they were real investigations, what was the purpose, what were your objectives in setting about those targets? How did you set about them, and what happened to the output from your Committee?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Right. Well I am bound to say that I have got to plead ignorance because they are matters that pre date my membership of the Committee. I am not sure that we took evidence from people – of course because we have got a lot of standing invitees we have got a foot – a very strong foot in Europe, specifically through Member of the European Parliament and Members of the Committee for Regions are very much at the heart of the European issues as you know, we have that level of expertise available to the Committee.

We have taken – interestingly we have taken evidence from some Ambassadors for example on the issues of enlargement. We had the Greek Ambassador before the Committee recently. We have had the Czech Ambassador before the Committee. Very helpful; in terms of relating their perspective to ours and perhaps drawing comparisons of the issues that confront them that may well also confront us.

But I am bound to say that I can't give you a detailed answer to that and again I have got to apologise to you Chairman I will provide some back up to that question. I will be grateful if the Secretariat will just advise me of the promises I am making to you, so that I can make sure we fulfil them.

LORD RICHARD: Could you send your agenda to the Committee? Send the odd Committee agenda, so we can see what it is you are actually looking at and considering.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Certainly I can give you a flavour of the Committee's work by sending you a couple of agendas for a couple of meetings with some background papers that went with it. Maybe that will help.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: How often do MEP’s actually attend because of course they have very busy agendas too?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: That is another problem for us. Because we have got a fixed diary of meetings, it works two ways really. It is inflexible. At the same time it does permit people to diary these things but we have had a very, very sporadic attendance. At the last Committee meeting we had one member, that was Eluned Morgan at the meeting. Hitherto we have had two or three. We have never had a full turn out and sadly, you know, we have rarely had the Conservative member.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Can you remind us how representatives for the regions are elected now?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Appointed by the National Assembly for Wales.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Directly?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes by Government.

LORD RICHARD: Which Minister sits on your Committee?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: It is an interesting point we have now got Mike German as the Minister for European and External Affairs, he is also the Deputy First Minister and we also have the First Minister. It is a unique situation. Obviously, it's a unique set of affairs which is a by-product of the coalition of course.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Are they all from the Government coalition two parties?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Ministers. Yes.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Everybody sent to Europe on the Committee of whatever it is, yes regions.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: No. In fact, one member is from Plaid Cymru and one member is from the Labour Party.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Two members?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Two members, yes. They are both full members.

TED ROWLANDS: You make reference to the size of the Assembly. Are you imagining an increase in the membership?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I have a number of issues I would like to address on that – with permission. You know, I am in your hands but yes, I have thought long and hard about increasing membership from say 60 to 80. That would certainly provide more opportunities for more Members to have a bit more free time outside Committee – to be able to prepare for plenary which is currently extremely difficult and puts demands on Members.

Having said that, it has implications – I think other wider implications for the role of the Member of the Parliament which have not been addressed, and will need to be addressed in the longer term. I think that even with the current set up, we have got to recognise that we have got different classes of Members of Parliament in the UK Parliament. English Members of Parliament have an entirely different role may I say, than those of the Welsh Members of Parliament. Clearly, we have a very significant devolved function and responsibilities, which does not currently exist in England. When there is more regional Government in England maybe that will change, but yes I think that 80 would be reasonable.

However, I am bound to say that I am not sure that the public would take too kindly to that proposal. Given the state of public opinion and in the context of what you are doing as a Committee - with all due respect I have a very strong view that the work of this Committee is premature.

TED ROWLANDS: Work of the Commission, you mean the Commission.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: The Commission is premature.

PAUL VALERIO: If you could elect extra Members how would you elect them?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I would elect them through FPTP because I am an unreconstructed first past the post man. I see the perversion that PR provides and it is perversion. Statistically you can justify electing people on a proportional basis. What you cannot do is legislate for the outcomes of horse-trading that goes on behind closed doors to produce a Government. What you get – based on all the research I have done is small parties exercising disproportionate influence over the Government. And this, and again I am not being disrespectful to you, this Commission is a result of that. The fact is that it was a price that the Labour Party paid for the coalition with the Lib Dems in the National Assembly. I mean I am not sure that much good will come from it – I would say that wouldn’t I?

And I say it is premature because I have a very strong view that amongst the public there is no ground swell f? The fact is that is or further powers, there is no ground swell for further change, there is a huge sceptical majority out there.

I think that we are not getting the credit we deserve for the work we have done within the Assembly other than amongst the informed and engaged public, and there are many good examples of that. I was talking to Tom earlier about the voluntary sector. They think the Assembly is the best thing that has ever happened because we are accessible, they can sit down with the Minister, and meet people, come to Committee. The whole policy review process has been a massive success in the Assembly.

And many of the policies that are emerging now are as a result of the work that has been done in the Subject Committees on almost on consensual basis. That is good for democracy. But with all that aside, the fact is that people out there are not ready for significant change. If you ask them do you agree to primary legislative powers for the Assembly with the possibility of tax-raising powers, on the latter point they say no straight away no matter what. But on the former point I am not sure people would be throwing their hat in the air!

DR LAURA McALLISTER: They have been asked you know in polls and all of the aggregate of the recent polls suggest that more people favour something resembling Parliament than actually the status quo. So while you say there is no ground swell are we wrong to look at some of the polls and the evidence that they furnish?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Polls are always very difficult - it depends what question is asked. The key issue is how the question is asked. I mean I can only speak for the people – a large number of people who I come into contact with in North-East Wales in particular, where there is not a great deal of empathy with the Assembly. I regret that hugely because I am a missionary; I believe passionately in Devolution and I tell people what we have achieved what we have done in our infancy, – four short years as you know. We have achieved an awful lot. I have pointed out all the gains. But for all of that, you know in North-East Wales, they are fearful of the sort of change that it might bring about. It may be hugely damaging, it may be seen as a move towards an independent Wales. They are fearful because we have a huge cross border-interest which we share with our neighbours in England - Cheshire, Chester, in fact a lot of joint working goes on there because we have there so many mutual issues of concern and interest.

I am being a bit narrow when I talk about this but I have got to talk about my experience in North-East Wales. I don't feel that there is at this moment a great deal of support for significant additional powers. We have identified in the Assembly is there is a need to recognise that current delivery mechanisms – particularly or Home Office functions are a concern to us. There area some issues where there seems to be general consensus – we should have control over policing, we should have control over the Fire Service; maybe have control over the Probation Service. Maybe others, services but they are things that can take place within the current legislation we don't have to have a whole new Act of Parliament to create devolvement of further functions. I think that is something that people can live with and will live with.

I note what you say about polls and I have seen the polls - I was quite surprised.

LORD RICHARD: Before we move away from it, your proposal, or not your proposal but your point you make, you can see the need for an increase from 60 to 80 members first past the post, how would you actually achieve this - you would lose coterminosity which some think would be terrible.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Coterminosity.

LORD RICHARD: You lose that.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes you would lose that coterminosity with Members of Parliament. What we have got is the worst of all worlds: we have got the worst derivative of PR you could possibly have; we have got 20 additional members– we have two classes of Member in the National Assembly. In the Committee we're equals but once you move outside of the Assembly we are different. I have a responsibility to my constituents in Deeside, colleagues in other Parties roam far and wide throughout North Wales. Less accountable, I would submit, than I am, on a day-to-day basis. I have to meet my constituency in surgeries, public meetings, etc., and I am able to do that because it is sufficiently manageable.

I have got some sympathy with regional Members in that they’re covering the whole of North Wales. It is extremely difficult if you are Member elected through the additional Member system. I don't think the electoral system is sustainable in the long term I think there needs to be significant change before the next Election in 2007. It cannot be right, someone could be rejected by the electorate on a first past the post ballot, and then emerge as an additional Member and then further emerge as a Member of Government and – it is a perversion. It is astonishing that can happen, and people find that extremely difficult to understand. I don't think that people are stupid; I think people can handle PR. I am not a PR man but there are better means of using a proportional system.

TED ROWLANDS: STV?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: That is a possibility yes. But I am – I am sorry, I feel quite passionate about it because I don't care how people are elected, what I do care about is how to make them accountable and retain that connection with the electorate. And many PR systems don't provide for that.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Sorry, if you were to find one that did, and each of them has an inherent weaknesses I think that is widely acknowledged, if you were to find one that did create a bond between the Members and the constituencies but also included a great deal on the level of proportionality and first past the post, what would be your opposition to that?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well, if you could produce a system that would deal with accountability. If you had a system that can convince me it could do that, that is the important thing. It would still have the same result that there would be a lot of horse trading, in the event of no majority party, and we still have the outcome which produces a minority party exercising disproportionately, that is what I have seen in Wales now.

I am not saying it is all bad, it isn't. We have done some good things; I am first to hold my hand up. The Government has done extremely well, but it has been at a price which I was not prepared to pay, as you well know. I thought it was totally wrong - six Members, three of them in Government, two of them Committee Chairs – it is astonishing for a minority party, the smallest party in this Assembly.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Setting aside existing coalition arrangements are you opposed to coalition Government per se or coalition politics per se? Surely if people are casting their votes in a certain way then that could be construed as being a more democratic form of Government than a Party that for example gains 38 per cent of the vote forming a Government?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I think the logical extent of that thinking is that the two majority parties would form a government.

DR LAURA McALLISTER: Two largest parties?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes. You would have a very weak opposition. Is that good for democracy? These are all sorts of nuances that come into play. I have not seen the system yet that does not provide minority parties with disproportionate power.

PAUL VALERIO: 80 Members - first past the post?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes, preferably.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well, you could split the constituency – I will have to look at this, I think it could be done. But it could be two Members.

LORD RICHARD: You would have 80 instead of 40.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: In considering the work of the Sunderland Commission, I was a very strong advocate of single-Member wards, the accountability issue was crucial to me. That is everything about politics – being identified and accountable.

PAUL VALERIO: Worst possible conclusion would be Wales on PR with a National list?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: A nightmare.

PAUL VALERIO: Two extremes.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Absolute nightmare. Totally undemocratic.

PETER PRICE: Can I ask a couple of questions from the North Wales perspective? On this issue of size you've talked about the shortage of time, to what extent is this an especially big factor for a Member from North Wales, and indeed is it worse for those from North-West Wales as opposed to North-East Wales like you?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes I think it probably is worse in North-West Wales than North-East Wales. We do have access to perhaps the best part of the transport system. I am bound to say that the train service has been astonishingly reliable for my trips to the Assembly and on occasions I choose to drive. Time is a constraint, we spend a lot of time travelling. On the other hand, once you are down there, locked in, you do have a bit of time to prepare and do some work. I think for Members who live over the shop literally, in Cardiff, they go back to their constituencies, they are out and about in the schools and colleges and clubs and the community centres, and so there are advantages and disadvantages if you are a long way from Cardiff.

PETER PRICE: The other question, if I may follow through the issue, the other question about the North Wales perspective is about the people of North Wales, the perspective of the majority of citizens. And in that there may be again a distinct issue between North-East to North-West Wales, with those in North-West Wales having greater access to Welsh media and maybe greater knowledge of the Assembly than those even in North-East Wales. To what extent is there do you feel a geographical difference in the knowledge of people in Wales about the Assembly and what extent is North-East Wales disadvantaged in that?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well I think that is a problem that confronts us in Wales. Geographically, socially, historically, culturally – differences in Wales which are quite significant. I have some knowledge of North-East Wales and the people closely identify with their English neighbours, Merseyside and Cheshire, Chester, and of course we also have media which largely serves those interests which are Granada Television and the Daily Post - to some extent, it is not a widely read newspaper I am afraid.

The local media is very strong in North-East Wales: The Leader, The Chronicle, they are very strong and they sell a lot of newspapers. Sadly, I think that the quality of the journalism and standards of journalism and quality reporting leaves a lot to be desired but people still buy it for all sorts of different reasons, sports pages at the back and so on. The media issue is an concern for us as we don't have a national newspaper, The Western Mail purports to be one but it isn't. More people read The Beano than The Western Mail in North-East Wales and that is the truth.

It is understandable as well at times, but the Daily Post is fairly well read in the North-West, The Mirror is well read. It does very little by way of quality reporting.

PETER PRICE: What could the Assembly itself do to build a greater connection with North Wales? Is the Regional Committee as it is exists, any sort of answer to the problem, or is there something from your experience now that you would say - this is what the Assembly ought to be doing and would have a significant impact?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I will say this about the Regional Committee, they have been hugely successful. In North Wales, we get massive attendance, not only because Rhodri Morgan has an open-mike session. He doesn't come to every meeting, he usually comes to every other one. He has an open-mike session and for an hour people throw whatever they like at him and he deals with it. That is always challenging. But even without that, people turn up for our meeting and visit the website to discuss key issues in those meetings: Wales transport, strategy for young people, strategy for the elderly, those sort of things. We discuss all these issues with people who have an opportunity to put their two ‘pennorth’ in. And they are hugely successful.

The Regional Committees are working exceptionally well. I think it would serve this Assembly well if the plenary came out of Cardiff on a few occasions. It would be almost a token gesture, nonetheless an important sign that the Assembly represents all Wales. It would not be too difficult to do that from time to time. You know, to go out to West Wales, up to Caernarfon. It is well worth doing that I think. We have not done it.

The Cabinet to their credit did have some open sessions and I think that went very well as well. Cabinet came and presented themselves to the people of North Wales. That went quite well. I certainly encourage that approach.

TED ROWLANDS: One question if I may. In one way or another a number of witnesses have implied that the reason that there is a low turnout and a degree of apathy is that the Assembly is seen as talking shop and doesn't have full powers. Do you think that there is any validity in that point that – if we had a full-scale Parliament would it in fact attract greater interest and involvement?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I would ask people to look at what we have done within the Wales Act and the significant structural changes and policy changes that have taken place: in post-16 education training; and currently in the Health Service, and there is a whole raft of other things we have done. Some of the individual policies and actions by the Government: free bus passes for over 60’s, prescriptions for under 25’s and a lot of other things have been done like abolishing tests for seven year olds. We have a lot of scope within the current powers and we have to do things to develop specific solutions for Wales, and we are doing that.

I think that if you stack up the evidence, people start to think - I was astonished with the bus pass system, I said to people, this is wonderful for you, you will be able to travel to Chester. They said, so what – everyone else is going to get them too - they thought that the English were getting them as well. We failed to get that message over. Simple things like that we have managed to achieve through policy, and so the Assembly has done a lot.

I think that if you look at the Subject Committee policy reviews that have been undertaken, significant contributions on sustainable development and waste management – the Nantygwyddon investigation which was a massive task and for which we got an awful lot of credit for taking it on. There are so many more – the Welsh Language policy review was extremely well received by most people. You can please most people some of the time that is always the case. Certainly the case with the Welsh Language issue but we have done a tremendous amount of work with the Government powers we have. So I remain to be convinced that we need more powers to continue to develop a positive, distinctive welsh agenda.

TOM JONES: Going back to the European Committee role, I am looking ahead to the enlargement of the EU on the one hand, and the complexity that that brings in terms of getting your voice heard and influence, and possible regionalisation of England. Do you think that the Assembly has the powers it needs to make certain that the Welsh voice will be heard in Brussels effectively in five and 10 years’ time? If not, are there things it does need to help it?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well, we are not going to have a separate State. We are a Nation State within the UK – a Nation within the UK. And we are not the Member State but for all of that I think that structures are being developed – I think what is important is in our discussions with Peter Haines that we pressed very hard for regional influence over policy development at an early stage. We don't want to be presented with the fait accompli, that is what has been happening; we are saying we want to be in at the ground floor. We can do that, we need to establish the structures and mechanism to do that. That is what we are looking to do.

I am encouraged by those aspects of the convention that are looking at subsidiarity, - giving the regions’ opportunities to influence decision making. And I think that one of the difficulties that I found with Europe is that there are a plethora of regional organisations, all with acronyms that sound the same, some of them self-appointed. Some of them have status like the Committee of the Regions, but you have for example the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions which is a self appointed body but gaining influence and you have got many others, too many for me to trip off. Other organisations are influencing the direction that you should take and I think that they are all giving voice for to the needs of the regions in Europe. And I think that is strengthening.

Enlargement is a huge challenge for us as well of course. There are opportunities but there are also dangers clearly. But I think I take a positive view, well a lot of people take a positive view on enlargement and there are real opportunities for us. We need to engage that is why we have been active and seeking information and evidence from a number of potential partners, Czechs for example.

LORD RICHARD: Would your Committee ever go directly to Brussels?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes we try to meet once a year in Brussels. We have tried to do it because we are now in the fourth year of Wales Week which has been a hugely successful event in marketing Wales. Massively successful, you were there Tom weren't you? My Committee was due to meet on Thursday, 6 March and I had scheduled it for Brussels, sadly. I couldn't get a quorum. I was very disappointed so we had to hold it in Cardiff. We had come back for the meeting but it does say within the remit we should go Brussels for one meeting a year.

LORD RICHARD: If there is something going through which effects Wales, which you have views about would you go direct to the Commission or would you go through the Assembly Government then UK Government?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: The Welsh Assembly Government.

LORD RICHARD: You would not go.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: We have access to the Commission in terms of influencing the decision making, it has got to be through, Government of Member States.

LORD RICHARD: I am not sure about that.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well, we do have access and they’re very willing to meet with us. They have met us at a Committee when we have gone to Brussels. We have had a number of Commissioners come to meet with us.

LORD RICHARD: The best way of actually influencing decisions is to make the argument.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Absolutely.

EIRA DAVIES: If I may return to the focus on North-East Wales. It is a region which has a long established MP in the area. Now, does the electorate relate with their MPs more and is this perhaps one of the reasons why there is confusion in the electorate from the Assembly not coming across to them?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I am bound to say that I think in the public's perception that the pecking order is still MP, AM, County Councillor. And it is still there. Very much in spite of the fact that many of the functions are devolved from MPs to the National Assembly. My own is very good, saying "well look, this is a matter that you need to take up with Assembly, it is an Assembly issue". Others don't perhaps. But in the public perception there is confusion and where the public are not quite sure they will go to their MP as traditionally, they have done. The MPs have established a tradition of service over many, many years. We have replicated that.

EIRA DAVIES: You've a good interaction?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Fortunately I do yes. Yes, because we share an office with one another which helps, in the same Party which is very much more helpful - in that sense it is a positive relationship.

PAUL VALERIO: You mentioned a lot about the European aspect of your Committee's work, what about the external affairs - what do they add up to?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: At the moment it is perhaps about promoting Wales abroad and gaining some acknowledgement of the fact that Wales isn’t part of England. Sadly, this lack of knowledge applies beyond Europe and to established countries like Canada and America and beyond. Ministerial visits have taken place with a number of far-flung territories; it is about marketing Wales and looking for opportunities for Wales, particularly the economic development side and also promoting our tourism and our culture, our distinct culture and language which are positive aspects. It is part of that general approach to marketing Wales at the moment. I think that the Committee may well want to look beyond that.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Two points. The first is that on your European role, under Standing Order 15(3), it says you're committed – the Committee may draw particular issues to the attention of the relevant Subject Committees. Do you in fact do this, how many examples have there been?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I couldn't give you an answer to that. But again, that is something that I will provide for you.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Thank you.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes indeed.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Second question is a much broader one. Do I understand it that you are generally against amendment of the Government of Wales Act except in one respect that is the electorate system where you prefer first past the post? Is that your position?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes that is my view.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: Would you actually amend the Act?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes I would.

SIR MICHAEL WHEELER-BOOTH: That is the only respect in which you would amend the Act?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Yes at this stage of our development.

TOM JONES: Then are there areas where you would transfer functions without commenting?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I think that that is possible, I mean, I am not a lawyer, and can I say I am not a student of the statute book. I simply am not well read on these matters, I am just an instinctive person. So I believe that we have been able to exercise a lot of policy changes through current powers, and then we could by using Parliamentary procedures, get further powers transferred to the Assembly without substantial change to the Wales Act.

LORD RICHARD: You've got the to get the agreement first.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Of the Government, absolutely. That is an issue.

LORD RICHARD: Not always easy.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I understand that ultimately, I suppose the Westminster Government may be a different hue, a different colour – and therefore have a different relationship with the Assembly and I accept that is a argument for more powers.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: My major concern is the readiness, the public readiness to accept the further significant change. I don't think there is.

TOM JONES: You said that earlier on that there was pressure on time on Assembly Members, particularly from North Wales because of the geographical transport issues. You were big in local Government, and if you were asked in terms of the amount of commitment and work, which is the harder job, being an Assembly Member or leader of a local authority?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I was a leader. So I rather felt that the leader of the local authority was a much more strategic role obviously than an individual Assembly Member. If you asked for a Ministerial comparison – no comparison. In terms of the individual Member I think the leader of the local authority is a much bigger job than individual Members of National Assembly.

TED ROWLANDS: Would you recommend a young person to go to Europe, Westminster or National Assembly?

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well, I think the National Assembly. I think that is where you can have the biggest impact. We influence policy and change the policy position in Wales, I think the evidence is there already. Over time, increasingly, that will be so.

LORD RICHARD: If that is right, increasingly policies in Wales and England will diverge.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Well yes.

LORD RICHARD: If they do diverge you have to have some kind of institution to recognise the dimension and it seems to me any way that means that you have got to look at what powers there are and manage the divergence in England and Wales otherwise.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: That is certainly the challenge for us both at UK Government and at the devolved Assembly - it is the extent to which we can live comfortably together. I recognise that over time, additional powers may be needed – we will need a further Wales Act. I don't believe that now is the time - it takes a long time in the gestation as you know, but I just think now is not the time in terms of current public perception for further significant change. I am certainly opposed to independence. Absolutely emphatically opposed to independence.

LORD RICHARD: I don't think anybody has asked you that question.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: But it is an objective of the Nationalist Parties in Wales - all of them, they want an independent Wales. This is a stepping stone to that and that is why there is a good deal of antipathy in North-East Wales to that movement. I don't think that necessarily should be the case; more power should not mean independence.

LORD RICHARD: Well, thank you very much indeed for coming.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: It has been a pleasure.

LORD RICHARD: Very interesting. Thank you very much.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: I am sorry I have not been able to give you more detailed information on the European issues but I will send some further information to the Chairman and thank you for the opportunity to come before the Committee.

LORD RICHARD: Very good for us to hear people who are charming.

TOM MIDDLEHURST: Thank you very much indeed.