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held on March 28th
2003
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at
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St George’s
Hotel,
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Llandudno.
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Lord Richard
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| I wonder whether you could start off by doing what we
have asked every witness to do; identify yourselves for
the purposes of the record, then open up the discussion
for us if you will, perhaps five or 10 minutes of opening
and then we can come at you. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| I am Enid Rowlands. I chair the National Council, usually
called the National Council ELWa. My colleague is Grenville
Jackson who is the Director of Policy of the National
Council. Grenville’s job is focussed on the work
of the National Council but we have staff who work for
both the Higher Education Council and the National Council.
If there is any confusion over that we can return to that
later on. I wanted also for the opening record to make
very clear something which I have referred to in my written
statement which is, of course, my husband is Huw Vaughan
Thomas. Huw is not here today because I am here. The views
which I have expressed in the paper are my views. They
are not Huw’s views. We are quite used to having
quite separate views in our house. |
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Lord Richard
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| We won't ask you where they differ! |
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Enid Rowlands
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| You can ask Huw. The other thing I did want to mention
also for the record is that Eira, who is also a member
of the Commission, is a colleague of mine on the Board
of S4C. That needs to be made clear. I understand Eira
is not here because she's at the S4C Board. As I said,
my views are my personal views. I have not sought a consensus
of views of my Council Members. Although I would say that
a number of things that I have expressed in that paper
have been reflected in discussions that I have had with
Council Members at different times. But they have not
been drafted with an attempt to reflect a census around
Council Members. |
| In the paper I have concentrated on four main areas.
I hope those are the areas that are of relevance and interest.
I’m conscious in so doing there is an issue about
the discussion that we have here about the relationship
of ASPBs, the powers of the Assembly and the remit of
the Commission. But I will be guided by your questions
as to the areas which are most relevant within your remit.
I also wanted to make very clear, because I think some
of you will appreciate that a number of things that have
happened in the National Council have been open to various
interpretations. In expressing the views I have in the
paper, what I am trying to do is to reflect on my experience
both at the North Wales Health Authority and the National
Council – I was Chair of North Wales Health Authority
for 2 years – about processes, systems and indeed
their powers. It does not reflect the nature of relationships
with individuals, either at ministerial level or at the
Civil Service level. Generally I would say those relationships
are excellent and we work our way around any difficulties.
If they appear critical it is the processes and systems
on which I am reflecting. The other thing I wanted to
say is that I am bilingual. I am more than happy to answer
questions put to me in Welsh and indeed if I am put questions
in English I answer them in English, I will move on in
that way, I hope that is convenient to you as well. |
| Therefore going back to the four main areas that we
focused on. In doing so I thought it was important to
look at the evolving roles of ASPB under the National
Assembly. I think there are some challenges around accountability
for an ASPB which is as large as the National Council
in terms of geographical size and in the size of the budget
– but also because of the political dimension in
which we operate, the education and training field is
one which is highly politically sensitive. I welcome that
because I think too long the issues of education and learning
have not been sufficiently prominent, but I think it does
actually raise a number of issues about the nature of
the relationship with the Assembly. |
| I have also chosen to look at previous evidence that
has been given to you about the scrutiny function and
have made some comments, which you might like to explore
further. I have touched on a couple of the areas which
you were exploring I think vis-à-vis the legislation and
the statute. I am here to answer your questions. |
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Lord Richard
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| Thank you very much indeed. We are very interested n
the relationship between ASPBs and the Assembly. How it
works – the mechanics of it. I wonder if you can
give us a bit more of that. Who do you – not exactly
report to but who are you responsible to and accountability,
who are you scrutinised by and how the Committee system
works? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| How long have you got! What I would like to focus on
is the legal framework. That is quite clear. There is
a Council management statement which describes respective
roles, my role as Chair and that of the Chief Executive
and particularly his accounting officer role. You will
be aware that my Chief Executive also answers to the Permanent
Secretary because of his accounting officer responsibilities.
That's very interesting when you get into difficult waters
and also throws light on to the nature of the relationships.
The way it is meant to work is that there is a planning
cycle. We produced a corporate strategy. We were asked
to do so and we did so, it covers 10 years. We very extensively
consulted on that strategy in the first year. |
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Lord Richard
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| With who? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| With the public and interest groups including Assembly
Members. We held meetings with geographic focus and also
with sectoral focuses, it was probably one of the widest
of consultations. Quite interesting given the point that
you were talking about with the CBI about the nature of
consultation. It was also interesting that people said
we consulted too much. This is one of the lessons you
learn – that if you don't consult enough you get
criticised; if you consult too much you get criticised.
From that process we produced a 3-year plan for the Assembly.
Then in June we try and pitch from that corporate plan
for a notional amount of resource – both running
costs and programme costs to carry out the work as identified
in the corporate plan. That then gets put into a black
box process as far as we're concerned. It goes to the
Assembly and I guess our sponsor department takes that
forward and that's part of the debate within the Assembly.
Then later on we submit a more detailed annual plan based
on our remit letter. We are meant to receive a remit letter
in January. It frequently does not arrive in January. |
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Lord Richard
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| That's annual is it? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| That's annual yes. We pitch for resources based on the
corporate plan and on indicative budgets. That's done
back in June time. In January we get a remit letter which
really should be saying exactly what they want us to achieve.
You have got some examples of that. |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Last year’s, it was dated 12th March. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| I would be fair to say that I don't have the remit letter
for the next year yet. |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Presumably you’re consulted about the remit letter? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| Yes I don't know what happens in other departments but
we do get a chance to comment on the remit letter. A draft
comes to us and clearly at that point we are quite often
getting towards the start of a new financial year and
we need to be very clear pretty quickly what it is that
we can buy, particularly from learning providers. But
if the remit letter is such that we don't think we can
match the contents of the remit letter to the reality
of the budget, then you have to discuss that. In my view
there has to be a reality about what we can deliver. |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Are you implying that discussion does not take place? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| No, I am saying I am fortunate with my Minister who
I do talk to regularly. I have such a relationship –
I will say to her if I think there are real constraints
on achieving the ambitions set out in the remit letter.
Nevertheless one of the other facets of the National Council
is that our work actually straddles far more than one
Minister’s remit. If you think about the people issues
that we're dealing with, they are equally pertinent to
the economic agenda, and the cultural agenda. You will
have seen there was quite a chunk about a cultural strategy
in last year’s remit letter. There are wide ranging
language issues because there is a need to extend that.
Agriculture; the future of agriculture depends on the
talents of the skills of the people in that industry.
So I have a dialogue with my own minister but obviously
I do not have a dialogue with all those other areas that
often come into the annexes of the remit letter. |
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Lord Richard
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| Do you go to Committee yourself? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| I go to my own Committee which is the ELL, Education
Lifelong Learning Committee. |
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Grenville Jackson
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| We have also been asked to give evidence on one occasion
to one of the Subject Committees on a specialist subject. |
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Lord Richard
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| But as a matter of normal procedure you go to your own
Committee? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| Yes. |
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Lord Richard
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| Do you go to every meeting? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| No. We've been twice in the past 2 years. |
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Lord Richard
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| Was that to talk about the remit letter or the performance
issue? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| No the first of the meetings was really an information
exchange process where we set out what we were trying
to achieve. The second of those meetings was really just
picking up the various interests of the Members of the
Committee and trying to address their concerns. I think
that would be the fairest way of describing it. |
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Tom Jones (in welsh then interpreted)
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| Soniodd CBI hefyd am y diffyg croestorri hwn o ran ei
gofidiau. Oes gennych chi unrhyw gynnig sut y gallech
wella’r sefyllfa? |
| Interpretation: |
| The CBI also identified this lack of cross-cutting
in terms of their concerns. Have you got any proposal
as how you could improve that situation? |
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Lord Richard
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| The ASPB and the CBI– |
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Tom Jones (in welsh then interpreted)
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| Gwnaed y pwynt- |
| Interpretation: |
| They made the point that– |
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Enid Rowlands (in welsh then interpreted)
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| Rwy’n credu bod llawer o le o fewn y strwythurau
swyddogol sy’n cefnogi’r Cynulliad am ddull
sy’n croestorri llawer iawn mwy. O fewn adran y Gwasanaeth
Sifil rwy’n gwerthfawrogi bod ymdrechion yn cael
eu gwneud, ond mae yna draddodiad maith y tu ôl iddo,
a hyd yn oed o fewn adrannau ar adegau mae’n ymddangos
bod anallu i i weld canlyniadau penderfyniadau o’r
naill adran i’r llall, heb sôn am draws adrannau.
Ydy hi’n ddefnyddiol dangos hynny? |
| Interpretation: |
| I think there is considerable scope within the official
structures that support the Assembly for a far more cross-cutting
approach. Within the Civil Service department I recognise
that efforts are being made but there is huge tradition
behind it, and even within departments on occasions there
seems to be an inability to see the consequences of decisions
from one part of the department to another, let alone
across departments. Is it helpful if I illustrate
that? |
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Lord Richard
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| Yes. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| The 14 to 19 review which is currently being undertaken
by my own minister. This is actually being led by the
schools section, which is a different section to the one
that looks after us. There are proposals in the 14 to
19 paper which will have very major implications for the
work which the minister has asked us to take forward,
particularly on planning and funding. Ted, I think you
know about the planning and funding review that we are
doing. It is a very major step forward. There is a real
danger that what will happen is that at a local level
you will have CCETs, is voluntary coming together of learning
providers, on the one hand working with us for the 16-plus
agenda and another set of consultation processes with
another group of people looking after 14 to 19 in schools.
Even within the Assembly’s Education Department it
sometimes seems quite difficult to get this joined up. |
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Lord Richard
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| Your cash negotiations, I mean that takes place with
your minister. Do you get into arguments with the finance
minister. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| No I have never met the Finance Minister in her role
as Finance Minister. |
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Grenville Jackson
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| On the subject of the remit letter, the remit letter
covers both the immediate coming financial operating year,
but also has a 3-year period. It’s about giving guidance
to the Council for the preparation of its next corporate
plan. One of the issues that arise from that – and
this relates to the wide interest from almost every other
Subject Committee of the Assembly – is often the
expectation that the Council is equipped and resourced
to act on their policy statements in the immediate coming
year, whereas the remit letter is setting the guidance
for the following corporate plan. So it creates expectations
on us that we're actually going to deliver. I think this
is the breadth of the people agenda in the Assembly policies.
I mean this week for example, I have had meetings with
the Minister of Finance and local government on community
regeneration, I have meetings with the Deputy First Minister
on European enlargement because the people agenda is in
all of those. Those are just 2 examples from this week.
It’s the capturing of the remit letter. |
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Dr McAllister
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| Staying with the remit letter, can I ask you about a
point you make in paragraph 16 where you talk about role
of the Education Lifelong Learning Committee in terms
of input into the remit letter? Because as you point out,
the Chair of the Committee did suggest to us that they
were rather removed from the content of the remit letter
as a Committee. He expressed a view to be closely engaged.
Can you explain your statement where you say you think
this will simply serve to make lines of accountability
more confused? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| It stems from our experience of exactly the role of
the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee. I have
experienced 2 chairs; this role clearly bears on discussions
of policy. My minister is a Member of the ELL Committee
and the remit letter comes from the minister. If you start
getting hopes and aspirations from Members of the ELL
Committee they may well be perfectly legitimate but there
has to be joined-up thinking somewhere. Otherwise, when
you receive these hopes and aspirations, they build up
expectations which often budgets just don’t resource
and running costs that don't allow you to deliver. |
| I think it’s much easier and more crisp and clear
perhaps for that process of discussion to go on with a
single Minister. I suppose am struggling a bit here with
the role of the ELL Committee. I am very clear about the
discussions that I need to have with the Minister because
that surely has to be part of the process of us being
judged as to whether we are delivering on behalf of the
National Assembly. The time scales are already pretty
difficult. We really need the remit letter at the beginning
in the autumn. If you are going to contract with providers
then still not having it now is pretty difficult when
they are sitting there saying, ‘Well, tell us exactly
what you want us to do.’ So we contract in the hope
and expectation that the stuff around the edges will get
sorted. |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Do you mean that you contract on the basis of the draft
letter that you see? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| We contract on the basis that we have a budget. I would
like to say that that is a firm settled budget. But quite
often it is not. Because the reality is that we do get
a budget and we do get a letter. We then match up, remember
we have to write an operational plan and a corporate plan
in all this as well, so we try to make sure that the corporate
plan and the operational plan fit with the budget. Then
we get a remit letter that may or may not fit, so there
is a certain amount of needing to square circles here.
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Grenville Jackson
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| The Assembly announces it's draft budget in October
of each year. It's finalised over the coming four months.
We have made proposals that in terms of our planning cycle
it would be very beneficial about at that same time to
receive even the draft of the remit letter because it’s
once that draft budget is announced by the Welsh Assembly
Government that we really kick in our operational planning
process because we have got a firm finance envelope in
which to work. So there is a dialogue going on with officials
where we are trying both to align our preparation of the
operational plan and the remit letter. So that what the
Minister is going to require is the operational plan.
Because the operational plan has to be formally approved
by the Minister because that is essentially the key to
unlocking the financial resource for the following financial
year so the operational plan is not is actually required
to be approved by the Minister and the other case is that
the Council has made clear to the Minister as part of
the national planning and funding review system that we
need to move to a much firmer planning and funding cycle.
We have a three-year corporate plan and a one-year operational
plan but the budget is only firm for one year. That brings
with it a whole host of problems. |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Perhaps I should declare an interest, I am and honorary
adviser to the– |
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Lord Richard
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| Are you turning away from the remit letter? |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Its a follow up in the sense a part of the same argument.
If I may illustrate the point that you have, is it not
the case that you have policy pronouncement by the Minister,
for example of lifting the age limits of apprenticeships
to 25. Then you have ELWa saying we have to manage the
expectations because we don't have the money to fulfil
the pronouncement. Is that what's at the centre, at the
heart of all the argument about the relationship to remit
letters and budget and policy pronouncements. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| That's an important part of it. There have been significant
numbers of policy development. I have to say I welcome
the idea, and the direction of travel is absolutely right.
Both my Council and the Executive support that. We think
the direction we're going in in Wales is leading edge.
In fact, there is a lot of interest from Scotland and
England, so we have no issue about the direction. My issue,
if I have one, is about the speed of travel and the ability
to deliver. It is about where the responsibility lies
to not just set the direction but also to enable a realistic
process of delivery. |
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Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth
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| On this point about the remit letter. The effect, on
a complete novice in this matters, was that if somebody
was telling another authority to go and do this, this,
this, this, this and then anything else that anybody has
thrown into the head of the Minister, what struck me was
that it was trying to do too much too quickly and I say
this knowing nothing of the minutiae, that's why I was
asking about seeing the draft of the letter. Because it’s
a criticism that is directed at our present Government
in London that they are disconnected and they try and
do too much too quickly. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| It would be a huge step forward if policy documents
actually had some notional attempt at budgets. I don't
think is rocket science. These are with really important
notions and ideas as there are in the 14 to 19 review
for example mentors for young people who are disaffected.
I think that's terribly important stuff for the whole
of the society. We should be doing something about it.
But rather than saying this is what we're going to do,
we should at least try and have a notion of how much that
is going to cost and have we got the skills in place to
deliver it and what time frame is realistic for delivery. |
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Lord Richard
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| Factual question. How much does it change from year
to year? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| Before coming here I did my homework, I read last year’s
remit letter, I read my draft. Its actually quite a big
difference. One example would be last year’s remit
letter had quite a chunk in it about pushing forward on
a cultural strategy for Wales. Correct me if I am wrong,
but we've not heard anything new this year about this. |
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Grenville Jackson
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| Letters are cumulative. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| The older we get, the more letters we get. |
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Grenville Jackson
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| If there is a policy – for example the culture
strategy was announced last year was in the remit letter.
There were actions in our remit letter for 2002/3. We
have those on, they are now embedded in work that we're
doing so they are not repeated in– |
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Lord Richard
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| So the remit is new work. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| New work. |
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Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth
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| If there was a change of Government then presumably
the past remit letters, I mean their first one they would
say scrub this, this, this. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| They may. I think the way we get through this is because
we have a very good relationship with the Minister. That's
terribly important. My point is, is that a sufficiently
robust basis. It is of course very centred to any system
that you are able to have dialogues and the Minister and
I agree on the priorities of increased numbers of earlier
learning. Sowe agree on the core – there is no question.
But the remit letter is quite an extensive thing. |
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Tom Jones (in welsh then interpreted)
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| Ydych chi wedi cael cyfle i archwilio gwaith y Gweinidog
a’ch gwaith chi fel corff yn cael ei gynnwys yn y
gwaith hwnnw ? Felly, gwelwn fod angen Pwyllgor lle gallant
grynhoi gwybodaeth am eich gwaith, ond yr hyn sy’n
amlwg yn eich poeni yw eu bod wedyn yn dechrau dod â syniadau
i mewn i’r trafodaethau, er mai’r hyn ddylent
fod yn ei wneud mewn ffordd fyddai cynghori’r Gweinidog.
Ar ôl y Gweinidog, cawsom y cwestiwn gan ELWa: ‘Beth
am y flwyddyn nesaf neu’r flwyddyn wedyn?’ Pam
nad ystyriwch y materion hyn yn eich llythyr cylch gwaith?
Ar hyn o bryd mae’n dipyn o stomp, yn yr ystyr eich
bod yn cael eich holi ac yna’ch archwilio, yna byddwch
yn cael yr holl awgrymiadau hyn heb wybod i bwy rydych
yn atebol, ynte? |
| Interpretation: |
| Do you have to have an opportunity to scrutinise
the Minister;s work and your work as a body included in
that work? So we see the need for a Committee where they
can gather information about your work but what obviously
concerns you is that they then are starting to input ideas
in the discussions while in a way what they should be
doing would be to advise the Minister. Following the Minister,
we received from ELWa: ‘What about next year or the
year after that?’ Why don't you consider these issues
in your remit letter? At the moment it is a bit of a mess,
in the sense that you are questioned and scrutinised then
you also receive these suggestions when you don't know
to who you are able to account, isn't it? |
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Enid Rowlands (in welsh then interpreted)
|
| Dyna un agwedd, ond mae yna ddwy agwedd. Mae yna agwedd
o fod yn sicr 100% am yr hyn yw’r disgwyliadau. Wedyn
byddem yn gallu bod yn atebol i’r disgwyliadau hynny
rydym wedi cytuno iddynt. Dylwn gadw fy swydd yn ôl a
fyddwn yn cyrraedd yr amcanion hynny neu beidio. Felly,
rwyf yn ddigon hapus. Nid dweud rydw i fy mod yn hapus
i dderbyn yr amrywiol awgrymiadau, ond mae angen i mi
wybod beth yw statws yr awgrymiadau. Yr agwedd arall yw
mai’r broses rydym yn rhan ohoni ar hyn o bryd gyda’r
Pwyllgor yw ein bod yn treulio cryn amser yn darparu tystiolaeth
a gwybodaeth iddo. Yn fy marn i fel Cadeirydd, nid dyna’r
ffordd fwyaf effeithiol i gyfrannu gwybodaeth. Oes ffordd
well fel y gallwn mewn gwirionedd roi’r wybodaeth
ddiweddaraf i Aelodau’r Pwyllgor am ddatblygiadau
sy’n digwydd ar y gwaelod? Os gallwn wneud hynny
ar lefel uchel heb wastraffu amser yn y Pwyllgor, yna
gall y Pwyllgor ei hun gael ffocws cryfach. Dyna rydw
i’n gofyn amdano i ni – ffocws cryfach ar y
cwestiwn hwn o atebolrwydd. |
| Interpretation: |
| That is one aspect but there are two aspects. There
is an aspect of being 100% certain as to what the expectations
are. Then we would be able to be accountable to those
expectations which we have agreed to. I should keep my
job or not on whether we achieve those aims. So I am quite
happy. I'm not saying that I am not happy to receive the
various suggestions, but I need to know what the status
of the suggestions are. The other is that the process
that we're involved with at the moment with the Committee
is that we spend a fair bit of time providing evidence
in and information to them. In my opinion as Chair, that's
not the most effective way of feeding in information.
Is there a better way whereby we can actually keep Committee
Members up to speed with developments which are happening
at base? If we can achieve it to a high level without
wasting time in the Committee, then the Committee itself
can actually have a stronger focus. That's what I am asking
for us - a stronger focus on this question of accountability. |
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Ted Rowlands
|
| Paragraphs 7 to 9: attempt to try to define difference
between scrutiny and interference really. You describe
in 3 paragraphs an interference system, not a scrutiny
system, where you have got Ministers, you've got Committee's,
you've got officials and you have got your own Council.
I will come to paragraph 10 in a minute. But in 7 to 9,
is that first of all a reasonable interpretation of those
paragraphs? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| I would not use the word interference. |
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Ted Rowlands
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| You could not possibly. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| It would be unhelpful for me to affirm the use of that
word. I don't use it because I understand the pressures
on the different groups. |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Does the £50,000 limit in paragraph 8, has that got
a long parentage that pre-dates devolution? Would that
have been old Welsh office limit on health trusts, or
is it a very specific Assembly obligation? |
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Enid Rowlands
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| These limits do vary considerably. One of the issues
is that these limits vary. In health it was quite different.
The budget was almost the same - about £500 million in
the North Wales Health Authority. But I experienced it
as a different system. I think I understand why they feel
the need to get involved because we come with a history.
There were four TECs that merged with a Funding Council.
Then there was also clearly a political view. The Training
Enterprise Councils were set up during the Thatcher era,
as a competitive model. So there was a history behind
that. |
| In that model, certainly in Wales - and I say this with
a full knowledge of course that my husband was Director
of the Manpower Services Commission when I worked in the
Training and Enterprise Council - but my experience with
my English colleagues was there was a lot more scrutiny
in Wales around the TECs. We were smaller - only seven
of us; then we went down to six, five, then four. That
was a history of the involvement of the Civil Service.
Much more direct. I think what happened with the set up
of the Assembly was that the whole thing became concertinaed.
I think that the powers came down to the Assembly, you
clearly had more Ministers than you had in the previous
system, and civil servants felt because they already had
closer involvement with the TECs in particular, they needed
to keep that rein very tight on these- |
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Ted Rowlands
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| Partly inherited from the old TEC system. |
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Enid Rowlands
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| Yes. So it’s not such a matter of legislation but
it’s about the perception of how things operate.
The problem with that process for me is that you then
go about appointing, in the National Council case, a stunningly
good set of Council Members with vast experience. You
ask these people to take on a role of responsibility of
ensuring the delivery against a set of criteria. We have
talked about the remit letter. Where does the Civil Service
function then come in when you set up this kind of body,
when it’s such a big one, as we are, when it is high
profile, as we have been? Because of the nervousness -
I think because it’s the first big body that the
Assembly has set up - you then get people saying, what's
my role? My issue here is accountability. As I have said
in my paper, if you think somebody is going to check your
work, your ownership of it really does change. So this
lack of perhaps space that I describe is about - well,
who is making the decisions at the end of the day? |
|
Ted Rowlands
|
| Isn't it the point that you make in paragraph 10, that
in fact you’re in such a high profile political area
- sixth form funding, training provider funding, further
education funding - these are highly public and traditionally
quasi local government decisions, quasi Ministerial decisions.
That in fact they really ought to be a department of the
Welsh Assembly Government because they are directly accountable
to Ministers and that would make it a much more clearer
degree of accountability than these that you describe. |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| I think that you can make any system work. You can play
around with the deck chairs as much as you like, what
you need is clarity about respected roles and accountabilities.
This system certainly can work. The ASPB system brings
in this profound knowledge and expertise from outside
and is a very rich mix. It can be made to work. Equally,
a departmental structure as you describe would also be
made to work. Neither will work unless people are absolutely
clear about who takes decisions on what and what they
are accountable for. That is my point. It is not that
one model is better than the other, although in Wales
we are tempted to swap models if that's a solution. I
think that we are struggling sometimes to be very clear
about who does what and what the roles are. |
|
Peter Price
|
| Can I press you on the distinction that you drew at
the outset between the relationships with people, excellent,
and your criticisms of systems? In a way, what you have
been saying strikes me as being not about the systems
but about the way that people have chosen to operate them.
For example, that the people operating the system are
not looking at the budgetary implications of what they
are writing down in certain other documents; that they
are not doing things according to an appropriate timetable.
Nothing of that as I have understood so far is actually
inherent in the system. It’s the way that the system
is currently being applied. Can you identify anything
that in the system that complicates your carrying out
your role? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| If I could add another part of the framework. I think
your analysis is partially correct but it does not come
out of a vacuum. It has a whole history behind it. It
is the history of how organisations have worked in the
past. A journey to find a new way of working given the
changed circumstances of devolution, which I am describing.
These are fine individuals that we work with, they don’t
do these things in the least bit deliberately, it must
be very clear that that is not the case. They come with
a history and a traditional culture. I suppose I am addressing
a need to change our culture and the culture of our institutions
as well as the framework of our institutions if these
things are really to work. |
|
Peter Price
|
| You mention the difference between your experience now
and your experience in the health field. Could you indicate
the years when you chaired the health authority and what
were the significant differences between the two? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| Right. If I work backwards I left the health authority
in December 2000, I was appointed in 1997 and I did two
years there. There was a very small overlap whereby I
held the reins of the Health Authority when I was appointed
in October of 2000 to the National Council. Sorry the
other part of your question? |
|
Peter Price
|
| What was the difference in the way that the systems
operated between health and the education and training
field? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| The similarity was that they were both highly complex.
But the Health Authorities were much more hands off, if
I can describe it as that. We had considerably less contact
with the minister, a lot less contact certainly at the
Chair and Board level with the civil servants, and it
was much more a case of ‘Here's an amount of money’;
there was almost a recognition that you were never going
to meet all the needs of an area with that. You had to
decide which priorities you were going to address. Was
it going to be the diabetes service, mental health? You
could juggle really at the margin, it was left up to you
how you were going to do that in all honesty. Then you
just had an end of year review meeting - almost a jamboree
- which took you through everything that you had done
and got ticks and crosses. It was quite different to the
very, very ongoing dialogue that we and the National Council
have. |
|
Peter Price
|
| Finally, if I pick up this. The nature of education,
the nature of this ongoing dialogue and the way things
work now in your criticisms of it, suppose we were looking
at this in England rather than in Wales? We're talking
about big budgets; we're talking about high profile; we're
talking about big impacts. What would be different? Because
of those same reasons, isn't there still in that sense
a lot of ministerial involvement, a lot of civil servant
involvement? Where is the difference? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| I don't have a detailed view of that. Let me hilight
some differences. The Learning and Skills Council is enormous.
The National Council is big in Wales, but the Learning
Skills Council is enormous. It has a very broad regional
set up, it had nine months to set itself up. It now has
a three year rolling budget and its ability to manoeuvre
and not have to land on a financial pinhead at the end
of the year is significantly easier, I would say, than
the National Council. If I can draw a comparison, I was
in the WDA for a number of years. It was more easier to
land on the financial pinhead because I had a stack of
projects in my back pockets. I had land that I could buy
up in North Wales and use up the budget. It was successful.
I got a lot more money into North Wales that way. With
people you can't turn those deals on and off |
|
Lord Richard
|
| Why have they got it in England and not in Wales? Is
it something to do with the powers of the Assembly? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| No, it is their decision. I don't think its anything
to do with the powers. Policy choice. |
|
Tom Jones (in welsh then interpretation)
|
| Cyn belled ag y mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn y cwestiwn,
rydym yn symud i ariannu mynegol 3 blynedd ond mwy o hyblygrwydd. |
| Interpretation: |
| As far as the voluntary sector is concerned, we are
moving to 3 year indicative funding but more flexibility. |
|
Enid Rowlands (in welsh then interpreted)
|
| Yn enwedig gyda materion pobl, byddai hynny’n eithriadol
o fuddiol. Byddai’n wir. |
| Interpretation: |
| Particularly with the people issues, that would be
enormously helpful. It really would. |
|
Lord Richard
|
| There is one phrase that you used which we can't let
you get away with: ‘Wanting to produce a change in
the culture of the institutions.’ What does that
mean? Which institutions? What sort of culture? Has it
changed since devolution? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| Like ourselves in the National Council we are struggling
still at this stage - 23 months old - to establish one
comprehensive new culture. One set of values and principles
that everybody has signed up to. |
|
Lord Richard
|
| All the ASPBs. |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| Yes. That's particularly the case for us, because we
merged not just two organisations, we merged six in total.
That was some feat in a matter of weeks and months. So
we think we have our own challenge. That's part of it.
I think the Civil Service also has its challenges round
its culture to work in new and different relationships
with an Assembly, which is quite different to working
with two or three Ministers. I think that it’s a
big organisation. It has strong historical links and traditions
and of course it’s still a part of the UK Civil Service
at the end of the day. So how do people in Wales in the
Civil Service choose to operate as part of a UK Civil
Service that still works on a Whitehall model? There are
challenges there for them. As a new body I think the Assembly
itself is still trying to find the best way of working
- you are an example of it here - through not just systems
and procedures, but it's about what the right kind of
acceptable behaviour is. I think a very pertinent point
we had this morning another leaked document for instance.
So what kind of standards and behaviours - what is the
nature of that organisation? All of us are trying to find
new ways of working. |
|
Lord Richard
|
| Can I ask you an indiscrete question? How closely were
you consulted about yesterday’s decision? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| About yesterday’s decision. Can I be clear because
a lot of things happened yesterday? Yesterday’s decision
about the moving from a part-time Chief Executive to full-time
- I think that is a very good example, I was very closely
involved in that. Well, over 12 months ago I and the Chair
of the Higher Education Council, when he became the permanent
Chair, went to the Minister and expressed our concern.
She was good enough to listen to that. She instigated
an independent review and that was carried out and completed
in August last year. We have consistently worked very
closely, not just with the Minister but with the Higher
Education Council to take that through. That's a very
good example of working closely together. |
|
Tom Jones (in welsh then interpreted)
|
| Gawn ni fynd yn ôl at eiriau Peter am ffactor Lloegr
(paragraff 9), sydd hefyd yn cysylltu â llythyr cylch
gwaith 3, 2020, paragraff 4? Rydych yn dweud na allwch
drafod gyda gweision silfil yn Llundain heb i rywun fod
gyda chi. Yr holl syniad gyda’r angen am fod ar flaen
y gad mewn datblygiad yw eich bod yn cael bod yn eich
lle a gallu rhannu hynny yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, o edrych
ar y llythyr cylch gwaith lle bydd y Gweinidog a’r
Cyngor yn ymwybodol bod y mesur addysg gerbron y Senedd,
mae hwn yn cynnwys nifer o faterion a fydd yn effeithio
ar weithgareddau’r Cyngor. Y cwestiwn yno yw oni
ddylech fod wedi gallu cyfrannu at baratoi’r Mesur
hwnnw heb orfod aros tan yr is-ddeddfwriaeth? Hynny yw,
hwn yw’r mesur fframwaith a fyddai’n effeithio
ar eich gwaith, yn hytrach na dim ond y rhan a allai effeithio
ar Gymru. Pam y paranoia yma o beidio â gadael i ASPB
yng Nghymru gael cyfrannu at lunio ar lefel y DG wrth
ddechrau llunio mesurau? |
| Interpretation: |
| Can we go back to Peter's mention of the England
factor (paragraph 9), which also links into the 2002,
3 remit letter, paragraph 4? You say that you cannot go
to discussions with civil servants in London without being
accompanied. This whole idea of the need of being at the
cutting edge of development is that you are put in place
and to be able to spread that into England. However, looking
at the remit letter where the Minister and the Council
will be aware that education bill is going through Parliament,
this contains a number of matters that will impact on
the Council's activities. The issue there is shouldn't
you have been able to have an input in the preparation
of that Bill without having to wait until secondary legislation?
I.e. this is the framework bill that would affect your
work than simply the bit that might affect Wales. Why
is it that there is this paranoia in terms of not letting
ASPB in Wales have an input into UK framing at an early
stage of bills? |
|
Enid Rowlands (in welsh then interpreted)
|
| Fe ddof â Gren i mewn yn y funud. Mae ail ran o’i
ddatganiad yn hollol gywir. Rwy’n cytuno â chi; mae’n
cael ei ddweud yn un o’r llythyron a gefais fod rhaid
i mi fynd â rhywun gyda mi os croesaf y ffin. Dyna’r
tristwch ar un lefel, oherwydd yn amlwg mae yna gynifer
o feysydd yn ein gwaith sy’n ymwneud yn agos â pholisïau
Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Holl fater budd-daliadau
diweithdra a Chanolfannau Gwaith, Cynghorau Medrau, mae’r
rhestr yn ddiddiwedd. Mae angen cael deialog trwyadl iawn.
Mae hynny’n dod â ni’n ôl at y cwestiwn a godwyd
gan yr Arglwydd Richard, ai gwasanaeth sifil Cymreig yw
hwn neu Wasanaeth Sifil y DG ond nad yw’r DG eu hunain
yn gwybod? |
| Interpretation: |
| I will bring Gren in in a minute. The second part
of a statement is absolutely correct. I agree with you;
it is actually stipulated in one of the letters that I
received that I really must take somebody with me if I
go over the border. That's the sadness at one level because
clearly there are so many areas of our work which are
intimately related to the UK-wide Government policies.
The whole thing about unemployment benefits and the Jobcentres,
Skills Council's, the list is endless. There needs to
be very thorough dialogue. That links back to the question
Lord Richard raised, is it a Welsh Civil Service or is
it UK Civil Service and do the UK themselves know? |
|
Lord Richard
|
| You can consult your equivalent in England. |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| I can consult the Chair of the Learning Skills Council.
|
|
Lord Richard
|
| You can't talk to the Minister for Education. |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| No. Unless unaccompanied. |
|
Grenville Jackson
|
| It was on a factual point on the Education Bill which
was mentioned in our current remit letter. There has been
dialogue with our sponsoring division on an aspect of
the legislation which is now the Education Act. That dialogue
did take place. In the new remit letter the implications
of the education for the National Council are drawn out.
One of our tasks in the coming year is going to be to
working with local government on the implications of these.
We were involved through the Assembly in making observations
on the Bill, but we would not directly engage with the
DfES in London. It would be through the civil servants
in Cardiff. |
|
Tom Jones (in welsh then interpreted)
|
| Pe bae’r Cynulliad ei hun i gael rhagor o bwerau,
yn enwedig prif ddeddfwriaeth, fyddech chi’n cael
mesurau gan y sector a fyddai’n dymuno cael eu cyflawni?
Oes yna alw? Oes yna faterion deddfwriaeth i’w newid?
|
| Interpretation: |
| If the Assembly was to have any further powers, particularly
primary legislation, would you have bills from the sector
that would wish to be delivered? Is there a demand? Are
there things of legislation to be changed? |
|
Enid Rowlands (in welsh then interpreted)
|
| Mae yna fân agweddau. Fy marn bersonol nawr yw fod gennym
gymaint ar ein plât ar hyn o bryd. Rydw i’n crynu
wrth feddwl am ragor o Fesurau, Deddfau a gofynion. Mae
gennym agenda wirioneddol bwysig, ac rwy’n credu
ar y cyfan fod gennym y pwerau i wneud yr hyn rydym yn
dymuno’i wneud. Mae yna agweddau sydd wedi achosi
anhawster, yn enwedig wrth sefydlu ASPB sy’n gysylltiedig
â phwerau’r Cynulliad. Mae’r broblem sydd gennym
nawr yn ymwneud yn benodol â hynny. Gallwn ddysgu gwersi
o hynny. Rwy’n credu y rhof y gorau iddi yn y fan
yna. |
| Interpretation: |
| There are small aspects. My personal view at this
point in time is that I think we've got so much on our
plates, at the moment. I sort of rather shrink at the
thought of any more Bills, Acts and requirements. We've
got a really important agenda, and I generally think that
we've got the powers to do what we want to do. There are
aspects that have caused difficulty particularly in the
setting up of an ASPB which are related to the to the
powers of the Assembly. The problem that we have at this
time is specifically focused around that. We can learn
lessons from that I think. I think I will stop there. |
|
Grenville Jackson
|
| It is such a busy agenda. We have already talked about
the policy development within other divisions of the National
Assembly. Over the last 3 months we would mention the
Strategy for Older People. We could mention the Innovation
Action Plan. Health. We could mention Welsh language strategy.
All those have impact about on the National Council -
we have big impacts. The Chairman is not fully briefed
on it, but on Monday we will be discussing a policy development
emanating in England with the Minister. This is at the
operational policy level, and the English Minister is
looking to make announcements on it very shortly but it
will actually require quite significant time and subsequent
financial responsibilities of the National Council. So
we see some policy developments taking place in England
which feed back into the system, particularly where you
have UK-wide institutions involved in education and training,
and one of the consequences of the devolution settlement
particularly, is when those UK-wide bodies adapt to the
new circumstances. This depends on which strategy it involves,
but generally Wales and Northern Ireland will get involved
in discussions with the department in England through
our own sponsoring division so we see policy coming through
in that way as well. We do get engaged. We are engaged
in that process at an early enough stage. |
|
Peter Price
|
| If one puts to one side restructuring situations in
UK bodies, you mentioned earlier on you could talk without
accompaniment to the Learning and Skills Council. Could
you develop the extent of the contacts between your organisation,
the Learning and Skills Council at your level and at all
other levels? How much interplay is there? How much do
you gain from their experience, ideas, research and so
on? And how much are you feeding to them? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| I guess these things are always not quite as much as
you would want to. I have had meetings with the Chair
of the Learning and Skills Council. I brought the Chief
Executives together as well. I know that Gren particularly
has a level of dialogue in the policy area. There is a
high degree of interest in the kinds of things we're doing
in Wales in the Learning and Skills Council, but as things
in Wales develop differently to England, so the gaps between
us actually widen up. The kinds of areas of responsibility
for the Learning and Skills Council are not identical
with the National Council. Jobcentre Plus play a much
greater role in work-based learning in England than perhaps
our very direct responsibility in Wales. |
| There are very important areas of working together,
things like the qualifications. We are trying to break
down qualifications into bite-size chunks so people can
have more flexible learning. Because it’s a UK-wide
institution we only constitute about 5% of their business.
Unless we persuade England that is a good thing to do,
they are not going to change it for the sake of 5% in
Wales. So there is a need to have that wider dialogue.
I think there is more possibility. I am a great believer
in making sure that we not only have links with England,
but we look at what's going on in Scotland. Scotland are
very interested in the kind of approaches around our learning
networks. Northern Ireland has a huge focus on the voluntary
sector coming out of the troubles. So they have used their
very strong community base. But they would say they have
problems from that. The richness of what we are able to
produce in Wales will be not because we are a hothouse
in Wales, it's because we have a wider dialogue across
the UK. |
|
Peter Price
|
| That sounds aspirational - what you would like to see
- and I'd like to press you on what exists. Are you reflecting
that there are these contacts now? |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
| There is a level of contact which constitutes me meeting
the Learning Skills Council Chair once a year for instance,
the Chief Executive makes contact more regularly than
that; Gren makes more contact still. There is a lot more
that could happen. In the 23 months that we have been
going I have to tell you we have been pretty well flat
out trying to make sure that we keep the training going
and development policy is taking up much of our time. |
|
Lord Richard
|
| Thank you very much indeed. That was fascinating. |
|
Enid Rowlands
|
|
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss that
with you.
|
|
|
