COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Police Authorities of Wales

held at

The Civic Centre, Merthyr County Borough Council

on

THURSDAY 26^th JUNE 2003

In Attendance

Councillor Haydn Lewis, Chair of Dyfed-Powys Police Authority

Councillor Ray Thomas, Chair of South Wales Policy Authority and Chair of the Police Authorities of Wales

Viv Waters MBE, J.P., Chair of Gwent Police Authority

Lyn James, Deputy Chief Executive of Unitary Authority, Treasurer of South Wales Police Authority and National Advisor to the Police Authorities of Wales

Kelvin Dent, Clerk to North Wales Police Authorities, Legal Advisor to the Police Authorities of Wales

Daisy Seabourne, Policy Officer to PAW

Lord Richard, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Dr Laura McAllister, Richard Commission

Peter Price, Richard Commission

Vivienne Sugar, Richard Commission

Proceedings

Lord Richard

What we have asked all the witnesses to do is to identify themselves for the sake of the transcript so people know who it is here in future, and secondly to open up the subject for us for about 5 or 10 minutes to make the points you would like to make.

We have all read the paper. Then we can pursue those issues which the Commission might find it useful to take up with you, either individually or collectively, or however you like to arrange it, if that is all right.

Ray Thomas

Could I kick off then? Ray Thomas, Chair of South Wales Policy Authority and Chair of the Police Authorities of Wales at the present moment.

We certainly welcome the opportunity of presenting our evidence to the Commission on behalf of the Police Authority of Wales. I think my colleagues would like to introduce themselves and I can lead on afterwards.

Hadyn Lewis

Haydn Lewis, Chair of Dyfed-Powys Police Authority.

Viv Waters

Viv Waters, Chair of Gwent Police Authority.

Lyn James

Deputy Chief Executive of Unitary Authority but I am also Treasurer of South Wales Police Authority and National Advisor to the Police Authorities of Wales.

Kelvin Dent

Bore da, Clerk to North Wales Police Authorities and I am also legal advisor to the Police Authorities of Wales.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Could I ask you all to speak up. The acoustics in this room are not very good and I think, both for the sake of the record and for the more elderly members, it would be helpful.

Lord Richard

For the sake of the Chair too. Shout at us if you will.

Daisy Seabourne

Daisy Seabourne, the Policy Officer to PAW.

Ray Thomas

Thank you for giving us this opportunity. As is presented in our paper, we are very cautious in relation to the devolution of police within Wales. There is an element of saying, yes, we want to go ahead, and there are certain issues that we would rather take some time over. There are certain issues that we would want to reflect upon. Certainly we have got an excellent relationship, as a Police Authority of Wales, with the National Assembly at the present moment. We have secured a good relationship with the previous Minister of Finance, who has the portfolio in relation to policing matters within Wales, and we are delighted we have retained that Minister and the new portfolio heading of Social Justice within Wales and policing matters as well. We certainly think that we have got a very good relationship and we have access to Ministers within Wales on policing issues. As I have said, the paper that we presented to you is a full and fact paper and we certainly have concerns There are many unresolved issues we would like to look at in the forthcoming time period, but overall we are cautious, but I think that, speaking on behalf of my colleagues, we do see that it is inevitable we will have further links with the Assembly. Having said that, I think it is a matter for your committee to question us maybe on some of the issues that we have got within our paper.

Lord Richard

Do any of your colleagues want to comment at the outset? No?

Can we start by looking at page 4 of your papers, the third paragraph from the bottom: "The Police Authorities in Wales broadly agree in principle that if the powers of the National Assembly for Wales were increased to include policing then there would be advantages for policing in Wales". That's a bit higher than cautious.

Ray Thomas

There are advantages. As I have explained in the introduction, we are seeing benefits where we can arrange meetings with the Minister concerned, but we are concerned about the funding issues. In relation to the differences between the Home Office and the National Assembly and I think that some of the issues of precepts and problems, of precepting issues within Wales and England, are totally different and some of these issues…

Lord Richard

Before we come on to the problems, can I ask you about the advantages. What advantages would you see? You say there would be advantages for policing in Wales.

Ray Thomas

I think the partnership working in Wales that we have got across the Government in Wales and the voluntary sector, I think these are some of the issues we could work in partnership with the National Assembly, tTarian where we identified drug and misuse problems within the whole of Wales and the Assembly responded very quickly in making funding available. I think that one of the major issues is the closeness of us working in partnership across Wales with forces, in partnership with the Assembly and with Local Government.

Lord Richard

Let us move on to the problems. The big problem is the funding problem. Can you explain that to us?

Ray Thomas

The differences in funding where we can see major issues coming from the Home Office. We get the funding via the Home Office and then it is topped up within the Assembly. As I mentioned, there is an urgency of that issue is in relationship to the precepts. The council tax issues are a major issue here in Wales, where it does not seem to be as important an issue in England. The Assembly is continuously watching the four Police Authorities in Wales in relation to funding and particularly raising funding via the Council tax. I do not know if any of my colleagues would like to say anything.

Lyn James

Shall I come in on the funding issue? As you know there are three main elements to police funding. One is police grant, one is the revenue support, and the third one is the Council taxpayer. This is an over simplification, but basically we can deal with those three. As far as the grant is concerned that comes from the Home Office, but the revenue support comes from the National Assembly of Wales. They have an influencing factor in terms of the ultimate level of the Council tax. That I think is one of the important things. There are other issues I can go onto, but certainly in the last couple of years there has been a tendency for more police expenditure and more of the burden to be paid for by the Council taxpayer. There has been a move from grant and revenue support to the council taxpayer. This is a clear policy intention in England as far as English government is concerned, but I have to say from a Welsh Assembly point of view – and they can speak for themselves on this – they do not find this solution to be satisfactory in the Welsh context. You have an English movement positively pushing more onto the council taxpayer but there is quite a resistance at Assembly and local level to that happening in Wales. There is a good example of having a policy, which is okay for one but not for the other. Now, a further thing that worries me – – -

Lord Richard

The English do not like their Council tax.

Lyn James

I am not saying they do, but this is a trend the English government has built into its settlements. If you follow it through to the Welsh settlement, then the Assembly members have shown that they are not happy with increasing the council tax.

Lord Richard

Let us take this is in stages if we may. It seems to me, if the Assembly takes greater responsibility for funding of police, but you as police organisation you have to compete with other rather important issues that the Assembly also wants to spend money on, education and health, do you think you will get more out of it that way?

Lyn James

This is why we are cautious about the funding issue. We need tounderstand more about total police funding, more than we do. I am giving an example of the way in which increasing council tax would be unacceptable in the Welsh context.

Lord Richard

If you got more money out of it, you would be in favour of the Assembly having greater powers.

Lyn James

I think we just want to make sure Wales has its fair share. That really is what it is all about. We believe Wales is not on a par with England.

Lord Richard

Really it is a question of saying you want the existing levels of funding safeguarded and, if possible, increased, but you think the powers should come down to the Assembly.

Lyn James

There are issues within the present grant arrangements which do not favour Wales. All I can say is what I see. As far as the current settlement is concerned, there is a top slicing from the national settlement, for the Metropolitan Police, which is money clearly Wales does not share in. There are area cost adjustments because of funding expenditure pressures around the Home Counties and around south-east England and moving gradually into the Midlands as well, and Wales does not get any benefit from that. There are also issues about the way in which the rural grant and the industrial pressures are recognised within the overall settlement. I am just making the general point that of late there have been issues which have not favoured Wales because money from a combined settlement has been top sliced.

Lord Richard

What sort of money are we talking about?

Lyn James

The Metropolitan slice would be about 200 million out of – I have not got the figures here.

Lord Richard

Approximately.

Lyn James

Probably about 7 billion, something like that.

Vivienne Sugar

What kinds of police expenditure come from the Home Office grant, what comes from the Assembly revenue support, and what is then translated into Council tax? Can you give us some examples of the different funding streams and what they pay for?

Lyn James

The Home Office grant and revenue support grant are grants that are paid in supporting the general expenditure of the police, so they cover the operational side, the police on the beat, the support staff, equipment, buildings, all various things like that.

Vivienne Sugar

What percentage of your expenditure would that be directly from the Home Office?

Lyn James

Just over 50 per cent, because 50% for expenditure at standard spending assessment

Vivienne Sugar

The Assembly funding?

Lyn James

That would be approximately – it will change per Authority – but as a general rule it would be about 38/39 per cent. Council tax will probably contribute about 13 per cent.

Vivienne Sugar

The controversial bit is a small part.

Lyn James

The controversial part is growing, This is made worse by virtue of the gearing effect in Wales and the Welsh tax base is lower than the English tax base and therefore additional expenditure on the lower tax base causes more than a proportionate increase in council tax.

Paul Valerio

Would the situation on ground level not be just the same? You have the massive population base in Glamorgan. Would you not find the forces in North and West Wales would find that their share of the fund would be moved elsewhere because of their greater demands? Also we had evidence given at a recent seminar we attended in which a senior police officer was saying, when there are special initiatives announced by the Home Office, that very often in Wales rural areas they do not benefit from this. Again, if that funding en bloc was transferred to Wales, you would be rather cut off again from those initiatives.

Lyn James

It depends on the arrangements by which the rural funding comes through.

Paul Valerio

How would you like to see that?

Lyn James

I think I want you to accept it is very difficult for us at the moment, even in our position , to understand all the money that is available in England compared to Wales. We have asked these questions of the Assembly. There is a working group where we are trying to identify this , but a lot of initiatives in England are called by different terms, different names, so there are complications in following these things through. It is not easy for us to look at the position, but all I am saying is I think, if there was a transfer of policing powers and police money, then I think we would have to look very, very carefully and cautiously at what method was used to transfer that money. Wales would prefer the special initiatives all wrapped up in one block. That would be something that would ease the situation and guarantee us a share of the English position, but I would want to start from the position of knowing what do the English forces get and to compare that then with what is available in Wales, because there is some evidence that money is available, particularly on the Local Government side, in England which is not available for Police Authorities . All we are saying is can we can start with a blank piece of paper and reconcile funding available in English forces compared with funding available to Welsh Forces

Lord Richard

Can you give us some practical examples about the disadvantages?

Lyn James

I can probably give you one or two. For instance in England street crime initiative there was 25 million of additional funding made available to support police operations against street crime and targeted in 10 street crime forces. They are all English, South Yorkshire, Thames Valley, forces like that.

Vivienne Sugar

The case in Wales is that street crime should not be one of your top performance indicators because you did not see it as a big issue.

Lyn James

I do not know what priority the English forces put on it but the money is available, 25 million over and above the settlement.

Vivienne Sugar

There was big row when the Home Office decided street robbery was the number 1 issue and the Chief Constable of Wales and the Assembly said, "Hang on, no, we shouldn't have that as one of our targets, because it is not a big issue"?

Lyn James

I am talking about the money. I would like to know what happened to the equivalent money in Wales. Wales is subject to the Barnett format. I am trying to be perfectly honest and open and say I do not know. It has never been reconciled and explained to me. When an initiative is funded in England, how is money handed out in Wales for a similar purpose. I just do not know. I ask the question honestly to find out.

Peter Price

You made a case about the linkage between your basic position outwith devolution of police powers and the financial side, because your position seems to be, if you are at least not disadvantaged on the financial side, in principle you would be in favour of devolving the function. The way that this sort of negotiation would normally work is that you take what percentage of the total take is currently being spent in Wales, that percentage would then be added to the Barnett formula, and that means that you can take in the overall as it is at the moment. That would be the starting point for any negotiations. It may be in such detailed negotiations that arguments could be put about the fairness of the percentage currently obtained and maybe some adjustment of a fairly marginal character might be achieved. You are not likely to get into those negotiations unless there is pretty much a decision of principle in the first place. In other words you cannot achieve a change in the kind of way that ideally you would like. Tell us the colour of your money first and then we will decide whether we want it. I think you need to have a decision of principle, but with the knowledge that you are unlikely globally to do worse than the current percentage, because that is the nature of the formula. Would you, as it were, buy that, that that is the likely sort of outcome there or thereabouts on the financial side? Would that cause you to say okay, in principle we are in favour?

Lyn James

My answer to that would be yes, providing there was some sort of understanding. I agree I am not really here saying, "I want a piece of that, I want a piece of that". All I want is a fair settlement for Wales. In moving forward independently you want to be assured you start from the right place and move forward from there. That really is the only point I am making and required an audit of where we are at the moment I accept there are going to be pluses and minuses over a period of time. I accept that completely. But I would want to be assured that the sum of money that is available and which we are going to work on is fair and we can move forward on that basis. Fair maybe a difficult word in that sense, but I think we have to assure ourselves that in moving forward we are moving forward from a sound base.

Peter Price

If I may press you once further. You are where you are. You have described that basis as unfair, by implying it is unfair at the moment, by the way you wish it to be. Whatever percentage is there at the moment overall is likely to be the starting point in any negotiations. The only advantage on the financial side you are likely to accrue is there would be some detailed negotiations and, if you put together some very, very compelling statistics, maybe in such negotiations you could achieve some advantage, but you would be starting from where things are at the moment. That is the point.

Lyn James

Yes. I understand the question and the way you are putting it to me. If I look at where we are at the moment, then as part of this year's settlement, there was clearly some sort of misunderstanding between the Welsh Assembly Government and the Home Office over a level of top slice. The end result of that was that Forces in Wales actually lost more money. The Welsh Assembly Package contained a sum of money, we assumed, that was coming through in the settlement because the Home Office top slice was greater than expected, all four forces received less money that anticipated. Forces in Wales fell below. Are you aware of floors and ceilings? You cannot increase above a certain figure and you cannot go below. Two Forces in Wales now are below the floor and are being supported by additional Home Office money that had to be given at the last moment. That to me is not a satisfactory position for moving forward in terms of devolving powers.. If we can resolve certain things like that, then I accept the point you are making.

Paul Valerio

Are there regional areas of England that could argue similar cases?

Lyn James

They would be subject to the 2% and 4% floor and ceiling in a similar way. .

Paul Valerio

How do the Scottish forces cope?

Lyn James

We understand they were.

Huw Thomas

I hope I do not do a disservice to the argument. We want to be independent. Get some more money. Yes, in a sense the Assembly is a new player in this, in terms of the relationships it has to establish with the Home Office in terms of your finance. But is there not an argument, when you are talking about how the Metropolitan commands, urban commands benefit, of being part of the wider rural constabulary, that would include Devon and Cornwall, Cumbria and so on, all equally arguing the issues about rurality with the Home Office and getting the Assembly element of that transfer right. That would in a sense help solve the financial position. What I do not actually hear, what I do not see coming out very clearly in this, is what is the operational gain of moving the Police Authorities as a devolved function. What would the people of Wales gain by that, leaving the finance aside?

Ray Thomas

I think I mentioned earlier the operational gain would be the close working links we have already established and the partnership working we could establish with the Assembly and through Local Government within Wales. That, I think, is the big issue in relation to us, that we are working with partnerships, particularly with the CDRPs that have been set up throughout Wales. That is one of the big issues for us is to work in partnership with our partners within Wales. We have got evidence that these partnerships are working at the present moment, but certainly we have got issues then in relation to cross border issues with England, as we have set out in our submission, that crime does not stop at the borders. Those are some of the issues we are concerned about our working relationship with forces across the border.

Huw Thomas

In a sense you have got that partnership now. You are saying it is working well, so what is the gain? PCA's set up recognise the fact that Merseyside crime will flow into North Wales. Avon crime will flow into South Wales. Is there not more of a problem that comes from devolving the police authorities?

Kelvin Dent

Can I pick on something you mentioned earlier, this very important and helpful answer, when you refer to the street crime initiative, which we in Wales did not think was particularly relevant to the Welsh situation. At the moment the priorities are set by the Home Office and they would reflect the British priorities, targets would reflect the British priority and the targets would reflect the British aspirations, and we do feel sometimes there's a lack perhaps of local Welsh feeling within the priorities and an opportunity perhaps missed to effect what the local priorities should be with the policing plan and through the local policing plans.

Vivienne Sugar

It would be possible to have some regional variation if the negotiation between Welsh Assembly Government and the Home Office was robust enough to take account of those issues. You do not necessarily have to have it devolved, or do you? One of the examples I have heard from someone else is the effectiveness of emergency planning, that it is overly complex because of split responsibilities. What are your views on that as an advantage?

Ray Thomas

There are issues within Wales that are totally different than in England. The talks we have had with Assembly officials are that, whether or not we could have a trial basis, have a procurement basis where we could have 3 years out to set our own targets and see what is and what would be good for Wales in difference to England. Maybe that would be some way down the line where we could get the 3 year period, a trial period outside of England, where we could set our own targets, because, as Kelvin has made the point, in relation to national targets, the robbery rate issue on national basis does not affect Dyfed, Powys, where they know and I think some of these national targets are not running in line with some of our problems that we have in Wales.

Ted Rowlands

If you were talking about transfers in some of the policing powers, can we identify which those should be? In appendix A to your document it very helpfully lists every power that is around in the 1996 Act and so forth. If one was looking at prime candidates for transfer, because you have said in principle you are not against the transfer, would the second dot after the initiative to publish a plan, would that be a prime matter for transfer that would become an Assembly responsibility? The Police Authorities would they go that far? You have been complaining about the annual policing plan of the Home Office does not affect the various factors. Would that be the prime candidate?

Ray Thomas

It would go a long way because we have got to draw up our annual policing plan in accordance with national targets, and I think that would go a long way in identifying our own targets.

Ted Rowlands

Become responsible for establishing a Welsh Assembly Government and an annual Policing Plan for Wales. What about to appointing and dismissing Chief Constables? Would that be a candidate for transfer of power? In other words the responsibility for dismissing Chief Constables would be transferred from the Secretary of State, Home Office, to the National Assembly Minister for Justice.

Kelvin Dent

The appointment is with the Police Authority but it has to be with the Secretary of State's consent.

Ted Rowlands

Does the Policing Authority support that in principle?

Ray Thomas

I certainly cannot speak on behalf of the other Police Authorities on that issue.

Viv Waters

With regard to the global question – and I will indicate part of the answer with Mr Thomas – with regard to partnership working, if it is already working, what benefit could one get, because if it is working at maximum now? What I would say on behalf of that, yes, the partnership scheme is working and the difficult problems that we are coming up against at the moment – and it has already surfaced in what Lyn has said with regard to the Council tax, and although it is only a small part, and he has mentioned this figure of round about 10 per cent, but if what we are getting at the moment from the centre has been slightly reduced, the only methods we have got of putting that up is by the council tax. We are getting and will be getting into greater difficulties, and a typical example is, as far as Gwent is concerned, it went up to 3.8% last year, to 21.5% this year, and projected figures are showing in could increase dramatically the following year and it is causing tremendous difficulties.

Ted Rowlands

The Commission is charged with the task of advising whether or not certain powers should be transferred to the National Assembly. You have said in principle, subject to all the other problems you have identified, you are not in principle against the transfer of powers. I would like you to say, if you could, as we ticked off those in appendix A, which are your prime targets for transfer and we can discuss whether we are convinced by that argument. Could you advise me briefly on which ones?

Ray Thomas

On the point of dismissal in a personnell situation I would not see any difference in the Assembly having that power rather than Westminster, but my only problem is that, when you talk about national negotiations etc. as far as Chief Constables are concerned, the recruitment, and there is talk of within the national setting is that they are looking outside of even England for good chief officers etc., and whether that would be detrimental to the recruitment of officers within Wales, because there is a perception out there, and indeed we are going through a process at the moment in South Wales of recruitment, where we have had only 4 applications for a Chief Constable and that is disappointing. First-class applications by the way, but it is disappointing only 4.

Ted Rowlands

The proportion of staff in training schools. There is one off on the next to comply on performance targets for ministerial priorities. What about section 38? How would you mark that? What we would like to know is can you identify – you have given us a very helpful list of powers and identified them – we would love to know how far the Police Authority would like to go in devolving. We can identify the power and say yes to that and perhaps no to that.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

It would perhaps be helpful if you wrote afterwards on this point, because it is rather a difficult question.

Lord Richard

The obligation to the Police Authorities are open to the Home Office. How would you feel if those powers stopped, not to the Home Office but down to the Assembly?

Ray Thomas

We will write back to you when the Authorities have met again.

Dr Laura McAllister

I wanted to ask about the issue of monitoring and evaluation and performance measurement and so on; should the police become a devolved area? I just wonder whether you have given any thought as to how that might function. Would you expect to have complete responsibility for the performance measurement side, should the policing function be devolved, and if so how would you ensure that four very different forces, as you have explained to us, would be effectively measured? Would you be using the same kind of standards that are currently in place through the Police Standard Unit, I think you refer to in the paper, or would you look at something quite different? There is a lot of literature on how to decentralise performance measure and how an all-Wales situation might take on very different values and different measures to what is happening at the moment.

Viv Waters

I think that can be answered quite concisely. The system in place, there is a reporting procedure for the Standards Unit. There is also a recording covering it for all the men in at any other time they need and there's a reporting procedure for that. HMIC come in at regular intervals, but they can also be called in by the Police Authority for any particular area we might deem to want an in-depth report. I think the same system is there. That system will carry on and it will be a matter of reporting procedure. They report to the Assembly as well. The reports of these independent bodies are available.

Huw Thomas

This is just to clarify. You would still like to see the discipline standards, the performance standards, as being set by HMIC. Scotland has its own inspectorate. You would still want those requirements to be set by the HMIC for England and Wales?

Viv Waters

There is already a professional standard being adhered to. The HMIC have the professionalism to come in and advise us on any areas. We cannot carry on ourselves and we would need that expertise. If that system remained there, there would be no difficulty in us, nor the Assembly, nor anyone that is deemed to be needing a report like that to have a report.

Lyn James

From my point of view each of the Welsh forces is different. From a South Wales point of view, with all due respect to colleagues, there is not much point South Wales comparing itself with other Welsh forces when the whole make up and the balance and the geography are different. I think we would have to retain national comparisons and national performance measures and national performance standards. Our family 8 forces contain goodness knows how many English ones we compare ourselves with in a real way with what we do and they do.

Ray Thomas

About comparisons in terms of performance measurement, you could have quite different targets as you do from one area to another.

Dr Laura McAllister

The English Best Value is very different from some aspects of the Welsh approach. Would you envisage revisiting a lot of those particular measurements should policing be devolved?

Ray Thomas

A fine example is Best Value where we follow the English pattern of Best Value where the Local Government have the Wales Improvement Programme. We feel that the Wales Improvement Programme is a far better way.. Issues like that definitely have crossed our minds and we would rather go down the route of the Wales Improvement Programme.

Tom Jones

When you come to tick off the list of duties the current Authorities have and the transfer, could you look in particular at the complaints procedures, 2, because, as I understand it, there is a new independent police complaints being established under England and Wales. To what extent have the Wales Authorities been consulted? Will it have a Wales regional set up or any linkages to Authorities in Wales or to the National Assembly? Have you been involved in any discussions on that?

Kelvin Dent I am aware of the new body. I am not aware specifically of discussions or consultation, or even the need to ensure Welsh representation on that, but certainly when we draft our further representations we will look into this.

Lord Richard

Can I raise an entirely different point? Page 4 of your statement, fourth paragraph, lack of understanding in Whitehall. It is lack of understanding by Welsh Assembly Government officials regarding the system of police funding in central government. What is the problem there?

Lyn James

The best illustration is going back to 2001/2 where the four Welsh Police Authorities were – "accused" is the best word – of overspending in relation to English colleagues and English comparisons. We did an analysis, and what we found was that part of the issue arise from a lack of understanding by Welsh Assembly officials. As a result of information that was then shared between finance officers on both sides. The issue was resolved succesfully and that was the end of it. But there was a moment where Mrs Hart was obliged to consider capping the Welsh police forces and we provided various information and we increased the level of understanding and we continue to do that now by meeting together as Treasurers on the one side and Finance Officials on the other, and I have to say the relationship now has gone to one of being extremely helpful and productive.

Lord Richard

You used the present tense, "There is a lack of understanding", but it is "was", is it?

Lyn Thomas

I think it is more a 'was', yes, than an 'is'. We do work extremely well together and I have to say, when some of the issues were pointed at to Mrs Hart this year about the level of council tax, she provided another 2 million pounds of funding to reduce the Council tax bill for the current year. I think that is an example of a problem being presented and part of a solution being offered.

Hadyn Lewis

When we had some trouble in the schools, Mrs Hart gave us police people in schools to cure the problem before it ever occurs. That is something that has never been tried before.

Lord Richard

Can we be clear about the message that you are, combined, giving to us. What do you see as the down side of transfer to the Assembly, apart from the funding aspect?

Kelvin Dent

Can I start by saying in response to earlier question, yes we would be in principle, in North Wales at least, in favour of transferring certain functions of the Secretary of State to the Assembly, for example the power to approve the appointment or dismissal of Chief Constables. We would want to be satisfied that the resources were there.

Lord Richard

I take the resources point. That is the down side point that you want to make. It is a resources point?

Kelvin Dent

That is onepoint yes.

Lord Richard

What others are there?

Ray Thomas

Some of the linkages we have got nationally in relation to national issues of Airwave, and human resources issues, and so forth, some of those issues may be of concern to us. Airwave, where we have to have some procurement with the National Force in relation to ENAS of NCS etc. and that work in relation to those Assembly issues that would need a lot of resolving.

Lord Richard

Why would it be different if it came down to the Assembly?

Daisy Seaborne

New relationships would have to be formed if powers were transferred to the Assembly with the Home Office and certain central organisations i PAW would be concerned there would be another new relationship formed and would be keen to make sure that national perspectives are still taken.

Lord Richard

The first organisation we have heard of the Commission which is in favour of retaining their relationship with [inaudible].

Vivienne Sugar

Reflecting on evidence given to us about two months ago on advantages of transfer and it being suggested to us that there could be savings if powers were transferred, because you could build a greater operational arrangement with other emergency services, there might be scope for rationalisation with a number of police Forces in Wales, and I was intrigued to see the resolution of North Wales Police Authority that your support for devolving powers is subject to maintaining separate police forces. Do you see any advantages if the Assembly were able to orchestrate greater co-operation with fire and ambulance and other emergency services?

Ray Thomas

There are some issues there where we do co-operate across borders now, particularly on training issues etc., but there would be issues where we could maybe set up national training centres etc. rather than have 4 training centres across the area, but we have got national bases now, but there are issues across training issues, and so forth, that there could be collaboration between the four forces.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

I think it is going back to evidence we had some time ago. The suggestion was made that you would have the police station in Aberystwyth combined with the fire station and perhaps the ambulance station, and that was really the suggestion and you would have economies through doing this, and that it was suggested that it would be nice if Wales could make such experiments, if they were so minded to do. It was not what you were saying.

Ray Thomas

We have not had talks with our counterparts in the fire service or ambulance service, as the Police Authorities of Wales. But we understand what you are saying, and I think most of us realise there is a possibility of joint working in that relationship, and particularly joint working call centres. It has proved difficult in some other powers that have tried it out already.

Ted Rowlands

The possible bureaucracy that may or may not flow from such changes. At this moment of time someone in the Home Office and separate agencies in Whitehall there are X number of servants spending their time, as it were, administering the Welsh provision. We have no idea of current cost of staffing. It was implied to us when we met Chief Constables, it was meaningless or minor. Would there be a multiple cost in the bureaucracy if the kind of transfers of functions we are talking about happened? Anyone any idea?

Lyn James

I do not know the costs, but I would say that is likely and you would have to create to some extent – I do not know to what extent – an administration in Cardiff to support the facilities and powers ofwhatever you were transferring over. I think that is recognised.

Ted Rowlands

Lost in the Home Office budget and not in any way attributed to Wales.

Lyn James

They would be netted off against revenues available. I think it would be incorrect to assume we can do this for no cost. There is bound to be some sort of administrative support needed to support the Assembly, if powers were transfered.

Ted Rowlands

You have no idea of the order of what that would be?

Hadyn Lewis

We are building [inaudible] a joint call centre. We will be working with the Fire Brigade as well in Carmarthen.

Viv Waters

There has been a pilot of that done in Gloucestershire and we have been closely monitoring what is going on there. They have a central control system and it is a 3-storey building they have, the fire service, the ambulance service and the police, and this new headquarters will be going on the same site and we are closely monitoring things like that and getting feed back, and it could very will be a way forward in the not too distant future.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Can I go back a long way to Mr James' very interesting replies about funding. It has been put to us by powerful evidence that you do not want to open up Barnett, that Wales is doing very well from Barnett. You are really saying you want to open up the books and what some previous evidence has said very strongly, indeed from people who ought to know, is do not rock the boat. Barnett does Wales fine. Have you thought about that in suggesting this opening up?

Lyn James

It is not up to someone in my position to suggest opening up the Barnett formula. What I am saying, however, is what I want is a better sense of transparency and accountability about those funds that flow to Wales. When there is a statement on the English side saying 10 million pounds has been made available to this, all I am saying is can I see an audited statement that shows a proportion of those funds coming into Wales. If Wales chooses to use those funds, or not, on other purposes, and if it can do so, fine. If Wales says it does not want them, fine. I am just asking the very simple question, if there is 25 million extra along side and I am expecting 17.5% of the total, can I please see it on the other. It is as simple as that. The Barnett formula is too big for my mind.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

I put my question badly. It was also on the additional money and it has also been suggested to us it has not always been shared out as it should have been. On higher education, the new White Paper, that there was no apparent consultation with the Welsh.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you all for coming and delivering a message that was clear and unmistakable. Thank you very much indeed. It was very helpful.