COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 of the

 EVIDENCE OF:

Commission for Racial Equality 

 held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 25 JULY 2003

In Attendance

 Lord Richard

Eira Davies

Tom Jones

Peter Price

Ted Rowlands

Vivienne Sugar

Paul Valerio

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth KCB

Bailjit Gill

Dharmendra Kanani

Proceedings

 Lord Richard

We have a problem now as we have someone else coming and, therefore, we have to cut the session to 20 minutes.

Dharmendra Kanani

That is no problem.

Lord Richard

Could you please identify yourselves for the purpose of the transcript and then we will open up?

Dharmendra Kanani

I am Dharmendra Kanani, the Acting Director for the Commission for the regions for racial equality. Bailjit Gill is the Deputy Head.

We are representing the Commission for Racial Equality, a statutory organisation established in 1976 by the Race Relations Act.

Our role is as in Government, which is to promote equality of opportunities and eliminate unlawful discrimination.

We have a budget from the Home Office and through other processes, for approximately £19 million. (Figure clarification). Yes, £19 million.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

For the whole of Great Britain?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, GB-wide. Our operations, unlike the other statutory equality agencies, cover a regional focus in that we have offices in Scotland and Wales with dedicated staff teams relating to the devolved areas and regional offices in Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham and London, covering those areas.

We have our work organised into two broad areas, one of which is to enforce the law and promote understanding of the law. The other is about promoting racial equality. In broad terms, that means we provide individuals with legal redress and, should we feel that their case merits support, if it is of strategic value in terms of extending the provision of the law but having significant impact across a sector or across the community.

We also have a facilitator empowered to conduct formal investigations, similar to the other equality agencies.

On the other side, in terms of promotional work, we have a role in assisting public authorities, voluntary authorities and private assessors in understanding how not to discriminate and to promote racial equality. We have authorities which provide guidance: paper, post and electronic as well as one to ones.

We work with strategic trade organisations and cross-cutting agencies. For example, we have worked with local government associations in order to provide them with advice so they can cascade their information to their agencies and representative bodies on the ground. We have worked with trade unions. Similarly, we have worked in private sectors like CPE. We have worked with audit inspection bodies to provide guidance to them in terms of understanding their role in promoting race equality. That provides some indication of the kind of work we do.

We have been involved in very major or promotional work through campaigns-based work. Therefore, some of you may have come across our public adverts on bill boards and elsewhere where, over the past 10 years, we have progressed in doing work which is about enabling people to understand the nature of discrimination, to more recently the role of playing, producing and promoting racial equality.

So, our campaigns have moved to that trajectory through to recognition to responsibility and linking to active citizenship.

In terms of our work with regards to devolution, we have worked fairly wholeheartedly in Scotland and in Wales in that our offices have been established over the past years. The presence of our offices in Scotland and Wales has grown especially since 1999, in parallel with the development of the devolved Assembly and the devolved Parliament in Scotland.

We have worked in close partnership with both the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. In Wales, you have already heard from my colleagues. With our sister equality agencies, we sit as advisors in the Equality of Opportunity Committee. That is fairly unique circumstances. That is not offered to us in Scotland or elsewhere, and neither in Westminster but that provides a very useful facility to engage with the Welsh Assembly around the issues.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is there not an Equality Committee in Westminster?

Dharmendra Kanani

No.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is there one in the Scottish Parliament?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is that laid down in Scotland?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, it is.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Yes, sorry to interrupt.

Dharmendra Kanani

In my closing, you may want to ask me a whole raft of questions in respect of the subject matter of your inquiry in relation to offering a better opportunity for equal opportunities communities in Wales as a result of any devolution settlement you may agree or recommend.

In our experience, the key message is that the Assembly has provided better accountability and greater visibility among communities. It has provided access for communities to understand civic processes - but we still do have an all-white Assembly. We are not of the view that you need to necessarily have ethnic minorities to achieve equality of opportunity because we believe democratic processes ought to work in the way that fulfil their responsibilities as laid down in the Welsh Government Act, as elsewhere.

However, we do feel in terms of the experience of devolution, and the experience of communities on the ground, that can be improved by representation both in terms of visibility and confidence and the ability to feel that one is reflected in national civic processes. I think, therefore, that is a key challenge for all bodies in Wales.

In terms of another key message, that is the over-riding tendency within Wales to assume because of the size of the ethnic minority community, that there does not seem to be a problem in Wales. I think if we were to touch upon Wrexham and the situation with regard to Wrexham, having looked at their race equality scheme, you may be aware as a result of the amended Race Relations Act for the Stephen Lawrence inquiries, over 300,000 equalities have, by law, produced equality schemes.

Lord Richard

Can you remind us of the size of the percentages?

Dharmendra Kanani

Just under 2 per cent.

Lord Richard

Could you tell us where they are concentrated?

Dharmendra Kanani

In the south.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is that 60,000?

Dharmendra Kanani

You have one of the longest established and ethnic minority communities in Wales, as you know, because of the Afro and Caribbean culture.

Lord Richard

Is the ethnic mix actually changing?

Dharmendra Kanani

When you speak to the local authorities especially, and police services in the streets in Cardiff and elsewhere, you see ethnicity.

As you will be aware, there are very different demographics for ethnic minorities compared to the white community because you have a larger ageing and larger young population in proportional terms. So, it is creating its own dynamism in terms of employment. Those services that are provided for older groups, there are issues in terms of demographics. But in coming back to the key messages, there is that tendency not to acknowledge the problem. There is also a complete desert in terms of effective data on the experiences and the outcomes for ethnic minorities across Wales.

It would appear that in Wales there is a lack of infrastructure or perhaps an unwillingness to engage effectively in collating data which would assist those involved in policy-making; those scrutinising policy initiatives to understand implications on ethnic minorities and all communities across the board.

Lord Richard

Why should there be a lack of interest or lack of willingness to do that?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, absolutely. However, if you were to look at, or ask the question, "Do we have information on the impact on housing policy in Wales on ethnic minority communities?", we would not able to say with any definitive response.

Lord Richard

Could you in England?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, absolutely, in England.

Lord Richard

Could you in London and other parts of England?

Dharmendra Kanani

Only most recently in the past month have we supported the launch of a research project on the educational achievement and attainment of ethnic minority pupils. That took time to achieve, to demonstrate the differences for ethnic minorities. Yet, if you were to look at the employment experiences of ethnic minorities, access to vocational training and what is happening to the economic needs and, if you were to ask for issues around access to employment opportunities across the board, you would find a very different picture.

In respect of the amended Race Relations Act, there are public bodies to understand the experiences as well as all communities and organisations. But as far as Wales is concerned, we do not have a picture. This was replicated in Scotland also, because of the combination of factors that is about newness, infrastructure, technology and underpinning and wrapping all that. But, it is not an issue of importance because of the size of the community. It has not given it efficient public weight, prominence or the desire to set the machinery to take it forward.

Lord Richard

In dealing with the Assembly, presumably that is one of the points you would like the Assembly to do.

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, quite. Working with them, absolutely.

Lord Richard

Are they receptive?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, to a certain extent. However, if I were to give you a proposal as an amendment of the Race Relations Act, as I was mentioning or, the public in Wales, they have a way to do things through policy to outlaw racial discrimination.

We wanted a stock-taking exercise of the new bit of legislation as we have the Single Equality Body. What better for us in Wales to understand a new facility under the amended Race Relations Act, which the others do not possess, which is a proactive duty to promote racial equality and to understand that in the public sector whether it is relevant, workable or meaningful to understand that facility.

The Assembly's response hitherto is to suggest it is our responsibility to undertake that stock-take. However, our view is the Assembly is responsible to promote race equality, not under the Race Relations Act but the provisions under the settlement arrangement, the governance for Wales, and they should have that implemented or in-built.

Lord Richard

Please tell us about the relations with the Committee?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes. It is very good.

Lord Richard

Do you go?

Dharmendra Kanani

Recently, I have not been able to attend because I have responsibility to cover all our devolved work. I also have responsibility for working with the Assemblies and Parliament and also in the regions.

Lord Richard

You have been in Wales?

Dharmendra Kanani

GB-wide.

Lord Richard

The UK?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, I cover Scotland and Wales.

Lord Richard

Yes I see. Do you cover Northern Ireland?

Dharmendra Kanani

No.

However, the opportunity to sit among elected members and to offer advice provides that immediacy, and that is relevant. Contact is undoubtedly a strength and one that should be looked at across the board.

In terms of infrastructure, if we were to look at experiences within Scotland and elsewhere but, particularly in Wales, the creation of an Equal Opportunities Committee for the Equal Opportunities across the board, I suppose one could safely assess it's been useful as a focus. Yet, how far it has mainstreamed equal opportunities across the Assembly, I would say it's not been effective. That is to do with the role and standing of equal opportunities and who has responsibility for it.

Whilst you will find it has an impact, because of the gender balance in the Assembly, the impact is on how the issues of sex discrimination and gender issues are reflected upon the Assembly. That is not the same as disabilities or race or other equality strands but that is one area one might look at.

However, in terms of infrastructure, it is important to think how the Equal Opportunities Committee would have a very, very different mandate or mandates to ensure that the relationship with other standard committees is very much more clear about promoting and mainstreaming equal opportunities.

The other area which is quite distinct in Wales, which is changing now, is that the Committee previously was chaired by the Minister. Now there is that Chair where, in my experience of Scotland, that Committee had the facility to bring forward Ministers to scrutinise proposals. Therefore, enjoying a greater deal of confidence of better policy-making and perhaps better scrutiny of policy.

Tom Jones

This committee in Wales can do that.

Dharmendra Kanani

I believe that is subject to discussion. I am not sure whether the Standing Orders are the same because that change has only just recently happened.

Tom Jones

I think that they asked the question this morning.

Lord Richard

We had the Chair of the Equal Opportunities Committee before us this morning.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Has that produced more data?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes very much so. We have got further information on the demographics of the situation across Britain but we will have to wait almost nearly a year to get the kind of cross-tabulation that will make sense to us.

The impact is religion ethnic education. Also, the indices of poverty and social exclusion vis-a-vis ethnicity and geography.

As you will be aware, the issues of geography are quite key both in terms of how people will deal with an issue but also how people will experience their lives in a locality in terms of morality and isolation.

Vivienne Sugar

In evidence this morning, with regard to local elections we heard that the first possible Member of ethnic minority is to be represented in the Assembly, yet just failed to make it in the last election by a couple of hundred votes.

I wondered if you would like to comment on the electoral system and what work you would like to be doing with different political parties to increase the representation.

Dharmendra Kanani

By working at a number of levels, I have brought a document with me that we have produced most recently in the past year that has involved working in all the political parties in Wales and Scotland. It is called race representation. It is about enabling political parties. It is not the conduct but the processes that underpin that which is equally or more important.

This Paper enables political parties to think about the Constituency and recruitment and selection processes; how they outreach and engage with all interest groups.

I met with all Party Chairs in a brokering agreement to sign up to this document, which is not simply about the election but the work of the Party across the piece on a continual basis. We launched this.

Lord Richard

Please may I have a copy?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, by all means. We are working hard with the individual political parties so they can think about the recruitment and selection processes. Those that were for an ethnic minority, in the main, were in the top-up lists. There is an issue clearly of the outcomes for ethnic minority representation; if ethnic minorities are to be placed in that way.

Also, if you were to look at the demographics, for example who ethnic minorities are and who they are aligned to politically, there is an easy assessment to make in what the outcome might be of this system. However, I would not want to comment on that. That is a political point and for our non-executives to make.

Within the issue, there is an important approach for parties looking at the centre of their activity and engaging with communities. We are working on the other side with agencies, always with the ethnic minority association - that is the initiative called Right to Vote. That is promoting better access to civic processes like mentoring, shadowing and electing representatives at a local council level. That is because part of the tricks of the trade is understanding local public issues and earning your spurs through local work so you can achieve that awareness and also those connections.

So we are working with them to promote a better understanding. We are also working with the Electoral Commission and its responsibility under the Race Relations Act to promote racial equality.

So, in terms of the arrangements that are set out, they need to think very clearly in terms of setting boundaries to ensure that those processes lead to racial equality. So there is a kind of tripod approach, as it were: working communities, paid communities but also the Electoral Commission who would need to think of its own processes.

Lord Richard

So, as far as the Assembly is concerned, you do not have an argument with them on powers. You do not say, "Here is a Body that does not have the power. Here is what we would like them to do". The argument is they get on and do?

Dharmendra Kanani

I do not think I have been saying that. The role of devolution and the differential impact of East and West is for Local Government but, if it is to achieve better resonance for communities and to get better public services and a sense of identity relevant to historical legacy, we need to think how it is achieved.

In Scotland, it is a very different settlement arrangement. There it is for the benefit of all ethnic minorities in a way that Wales is not able to do so.

In Scotland, we have worked with Equal Opportunities in the consensus and worked with amending housing, education and health legislation which was woven in quite specifically within the responsibilities of Equal Opportunities in the monitoring and other matters. So we have built in the Equal Opportunities mandate into primary legislation which will have an impact on how institutions regard primary institutions as being the core of their business, to do their business better.

Therefore, because of that mandate, there is an opportunity for a very different approach and quality of engagement of changing relations to change that which you do in Wales.

Vivienne Sugar

Is it possible, not now, but to send us some examples of that?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes, most definitely.

In essence, the Assembly provides a lot of opportunity to do more promotional work in terms of legal mandate, and a lot of opportunity for initiative and projects. Yet, in terms of actually changing the building blocks of people's lives and housing and education and other matters, it is a very different matter.

Lord Richard

Yes. Thank you very much. Will you let us have a paper?

Dharmendra Kanani

Yes. Shall I leave papers? I have brought a whole set of documents that might be of assistance to you.

Lord Richard

Please could you let us have the Scottish example?

Dharmendra Kanani

Oh, yes. By all means.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Are there any special schools for ethnic minorities in Wales?

Dharmendra Kanani

No.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

None at all?

Dharmendra Kanani

Had we had time, education would have been a key issue for discussion, and how we take the matters forward.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Yes. We have finished now, sorry.