COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Sports Council For Wales

held at

The Civic Centre, Merthyr County Borough Council

on

FRIDAY 27^TH JUNE 2003

In Attendance:

Gareth Davies, Chairman, Sports Council for Wales

Huw Jones, Chief Executive, Sports Council for Wales

Lord Richard, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Peter Price, Richard Commission

Vivienne Sugar, Richard Commission

Dr Laura McAllister, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Huw Vaughan Thomas, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, Richard Commission

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Thank you very much for coming. I'm very grateful to you for taking the time to come and talk to us. I wonder if you'd do two things for us. One is identify yourself for the purposes of the transcript; secondly perhaps open up the subject for 5 or 10 minutes or so and then we can pursue issues which we think we'd like to pursue.

Gareth Davies

My name is Gareth Davies. I'm Chairman of the Sports Council of Wales.

Huw Jones

I'm Huw Jones, Chief Executive of the Sports Council for Wales.

Gareth Davies

I'll do the opening up bit, shall I, just in response? First of all, thank you for asking us to contribute towards the Commission's work on the powers of the National Assembly. By way of introduction, I'm sure colleagues round the table will perhaps know to varying degrees of the work of the Council, but I thought if I gave you a quick backdrop into the history of the Council so far and its current workings. The Sports Council was formed just over 30 years ago by Royal Charter with the primary objectives and responsibilities of increasing sports participation – for, obviously, a number of reasons – and, secondly, to raise standards of performance within and across a number of sports. Since then, I think those priorities obviously still stand true, although others have come to the fore as well, namely assisting the provision of sporting facilities throughout Wales and, more in the last decade, in providing support services aligned to the excellence and raising standards end - the second branch I mentioned, which is providing medical, scientific and nutritional support services for our more elite athletes.

In terms of The Sports Council's funding, we get direct grant aid from the National Assembly. The Chairman (myself) is appointed by the Minister, and obviously I'm accountable to him or her for the work of the Council and its achievements. Currently from direct aid grant from the Assembly we've received just over 10 million pounds annually. The strategy of the Council – this strategy is the latest, which was laid out in 1999 entitled "Young People First" with the emphasis on encouraging as many young people as possible to take up sports at various levels because the research proved that if younger people could embrace or get involved in sport, those skills necessary to take part will be with them forever. It's far easier to try and hone your skills at a younger age as opposed to later on in life.

The Council is an independent body, but I think we are mindful of the political agenda. I think people perhaps see the Council all too often as only interested in looking after the elite end of sport. That's really a very small part of our function. I think the areas that certainly in my time in the Council we've been involved in has been the cross-cutting areas and aligned to the political agendas, such as social inclusion, ensuring areas of deprivation are afforded equal opportunities in terms of being able to take part in sport, which perhaps hasn't been the case because of the deprivation evident in those areas.

If I go back to funding, we're also funded from the National Lottery. We're a distributor. We receive currently just over £10 million. That's a diminishing pot. The fund is down from £15 million. For total funding we're running over the £20 million mark. So, we are conscious of the cross-cutting areas, which aligns itself to the political agenda: social inclusion, I mentioned; health is another area where sport undoubtedly has a role to play. That's an area that is being increasingly acknowledged by the National Assembly.

Over the last 2 years or so, we led an action group looking into health and active lifestyles, which has reported to both the Culture Minister and the Health Minister during the last 12 months. Education is another area we've been very concerned as to the level of PE being taught in schools, and we've been concerned about the level of training given to teachers in order to carry out PE in schools and, again, we've led a taskforce on looking at education in schools and recently been granted a significant amount of money from the Education Minister in pushing forward education at primary school level. Therefore, I think we do cross-cut into most aspects of our…

Ted Rowlands

Should we add the £5 million to this budget?

Gareth Rowlands

Yes, which I think is for a 3-year period.

Huw Jones

Yes.

Gareth Davies

Yes. We do also have a role to play, I think, outside sport per se. People often see The Sports Council – or a perception of The Sports Council – as at the top end of performance level. Undoubtedly that's the area that seems to grab most of the attention, but, as I said earlier on, that really is a very small part of our operation. That's an opening gambit.

Lord Richard

Thank you. Can I ask about your relations with the Assembly? How are they?

Gareth Richards

They have been better. It's interesting in terms of I mentioned the fact that we're an independent body, but cognisant of the fact that we do and want to work alongside the political agenda. I think we used the term with the previous Minister recently that we are an arms length body, although those arms are getting shorter and we are aware of that as well and it's a challenge for us to manage in terms of having done something – yes, fairly distant arms length in our previous existence with the Welsh Office. I think the number of people we were in contact with were very few and far between.

Lord Richard

Do you go to any Assembly Committees?

Gareth Davies

Yes, we're on the agenda fairly regularly. I think two or three times annually we present, at various stages, a corporate plan to the Culture Committee.

Huw Jones

It's interesting that the other day, in terms of the cross-cutting themes, the Health and Social Services Committee considered the report of the Culture Committee on sports participation in Wales and the benefits that that would provide to the health promotion agenda. I think that is one of the significant improvements that we've seen in recent years, how that cross-cutting theme actually is working in practice.

Vivienne Sugar

Can I ask about the budget, the £10 million that comes directly from the Assembly, is that conditional on producing your operational plan, then a remit letter?

Gareth Davies

Subject to a remit letter and for us to carry out the functions.

Vivienne Sugar

Is that agreed with the Minister, or Committee, or both? How does that work?

Gareth Davies

With the Minister.

Dr Laura McAllister

Do you know if the Committee itself has sight of the remit letter because some Committees seem to and others didn't in relations with ASPB? Do you know?

Huw Jones

My guess is the response would be it's a publicly available document. There is no reason why they shouldn't see it. I don't know if it's formally put before them. They certainly don't discuss it, don't consider it and don't comment on it, but whether it's available to them – it's certainly available, but whether it's sent is another thing.

Tom Jones  (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Ydy'r Cyngor Chwaraeon yn cyfarfod yn gyhoeddus?

Does The Sports Council meet publicly?

Huw Jones  (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Ydy; fel arfer mae'n cyfarfod yn gyhoeddus bob deufis.

Interpretation: Yes, it does; it meets publicly every two months usually.

Tom Jones (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Allwch chi siarad am baragraff 22 a'r cysylltiad ag Ewrop lle rydych yn nodi bod UK Sport yn cynrychioli chwaraeon ym Mhrydain ar fforwm Ewrop? Pa mor bwysig yw'r fforwm hwnnw? Beth all e wneud a phwy sy'n cynrychioli UK Sport? Aelod o'r bwrdd neu aelod o staff?

Interpretation:

Could you talk about paragraph 22 and this link with Europe where you state that UK Sport represents British sport on the European forum? How important is that forum? What can it do and who represents UK Sport? Is it a board member or a staff member?

Huw Jones 

If I could first of all, Chairman, make a slight correction to the paper? It only came in today. When we talk in the paper about the Assembly adopting a more pro-active role towards sport in Europe compared to Whitehall, actually I received a letter this morning from the Assembly, via DCMS, which is a letter from Tessa Jowell, the Secretary of State, to Jack Straw, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, saying that the UK policy towards Europe has now changed as far as sport is concerned. The policy of the UK Government was always opposed to any article on sport within any treaty and they've now changed their view on that formally, so they are now in favour, as of 20 May of this year, and that is proposed to be included in the new EU Treaty Article as a result of the European Convention.

Lord Richard

Do you know the terms of what they want?

Huw Jones

What the letter says is they are proposing that there should be a light touch in terms of European Union input. I think they're quite happy that there is involvement of the European Commission in small-scale grant aid issues, in providing advice and guidance, but I think the Government would still be very much opposed to the EU playing any more significant role than that.

Lord Richard

I see. Can you tell us a bit about the lottery point? You make something of it in your paper, paragraph 12, 14, 15...

Huw Jones

Would you like me to answer Mr. Jones's point first? Just to finish those off, UK Sport plays a role which is very much focused on the excellence end of UK sport. It is also a representative body as far as the United Kingdom is concerned and therefore has any seats to do with the Council of Europe as well as the European Union. The Council of Europe obviously doesn't have any legislative powers or anything. It's mainly a discussion forum, promotion forum, etc. That is actually quite useful in terms of you especially want to learn from European issues. What can we learn from other countries about structures, programmes, issues, initiatives? When you're not there at that table it's very difficult. Yes, we get minutes. Yes, we see the odd papers and things. Like most systems that are based on that type of structure, you invariably miss out on those papers in minutes and certainly miss out at being at the table and the benefit that accrues. That's the main down-side of that particular involvement.

The world is getting a much smaller place now. We need to learn from others and we need to learn from not only the other home countries but from European colleagues and things as well in terms of how sport can be developed and how it can contribute towards social justice, health promotion, physical education, et cetera. In terms of the lottery, Chairman, that's a more confused area. The powers in terms of the National Lottery are not devolved to the Assembly and they're still retained centrally and the Secretary of State for Culture still has responsibility for the National Lottery, indeed, the policies that underpin it. I think there are three areas where that confusion reigns at the moment.

First of all, in the powers that the Assembly does have. I believe that there is a concordat in existence between the devolved administrations and DCMS regarding this, but I've never actually seen this particular concordat. That should set out what the relationship will be between DCMS and the Assembly in relation to things such as setting of policy directions. The legislation allows Government to set policy directions to the distributors. In setting those policy directions, it could say we want you to focus on deprived communities, or we want you to focus on young people, or want you to focus on crime reduction, or whatever. It's not clear what input the Assembly has into that policy direction setting.

The second issue is regarding accounting officer issues and whose responsibility it is. The principal accounting officer is clearly the accounting officer for the Department of Culture Media and Sport, but, having said that, we don't relate to DCMS financially at all. If there were any problems that related to the lottery, I would see my link as being the accounting officer at the Welsh Assembly, namely the Permanent Secretary. So, there is lack of clarity there. That was one of those issues that was highlighted in our recent quinquennial review.

Then, the third issue is very much related to operations and issues relating to marketing and promotion and those type of issues. Clearly, when you have some bodies which are UK-based bodies and others which are devolved, such as ourselves and the Arts Council for Wales, then that's clearly much more difficult to do than if you had clearly Wales-based bodies and could discuss and negotiate with them. A lot of the Wales-based bodies clearly have policies which are determined centrally. So, it is a bit more challenging compared particularly to our Exchequer one.

Ted Rowlands

Is this a kind of Barnett formula for lottery distribution? Do you get at least a prescribed percentage of whatever, and, if so, is that favourable or unfavourable?

Gareth Davies

We'd always argue unfavourable. Currently, the percentage is 4.5%.

Ted Rowlands

That is unfavourable compared to Barnett, yes.

Gareth Davies

It did start at 5%. I think the half-percent we lost went into funding UK Sport, the sporting element of UK Sport in terms of world-class performance plans. To be fair, the Minister at the National Assembly has always fought this – tried to fight it – with DCMS in terms of a percentage because I understand the other lottery distributors apart from ourselves and the Arts Council because we're Welsh-based – Welsh bodies receive 6%.

Ted Rowlands 

Is it because they're top-slicing it for their Centres of Excellence – we're entitled to tap? Is that the reason?

Huw Jones

Not so much towards Centres of Excellence but funding of elite individuals at UK level. Clearly, some of those are Welsh and would benefit. At the moment, it varies depending on the time of year, but it's around about 30, something like that, plus or minus.

Ted Rowlands 

30 Welsh sports people?

Huw Jones

Right at the very top. They would benefit.

Ted Rowlands

If you totted up the cost of them, would that pull you up to your 5% or not?

Huw Jones

No.

Vivienne Sugar

To answer your point...

Ted Rowlands

Here we're just talking about the straightforward lottery funding. We're not talking about millennium money or any other things. I notice this might be shutting the door after the horse has bolted, but do you have a view about the distribution of all lottery funds to Wales over the last few years, whether you feel they've had a fair share?

Gareth Davies

One thing the percentage of 4½% doesn't take into account is the extra deprivation we'd argue Wales suffers as opposed to some other areas of the country. The other issue as well is building a swimming pool in Wales should cost the same as building one in England. When you've only got 10 million pounds to play with where half of that is available as capital, it makes the building of a swimming pool pretty difficult because of the figures, so, again, we are at a disadvantage because of the way the allocation is split on a percentage basis.

Ted Rowlands

So, for big national projects: £10 million.

Gareth Davies

Thankfully most of the major national projects identified in the mid-90s have been met. There is one outstanding. Then you've got your next tier of regional centres. It's fine to have a national swimming pool in Swansea, but North Wales requires one, South-east Wales requires one. It makes it prohibitive to meet those requirements.

Ted Rowlands

Putting aside the lottery issue, have your dealings with the Assembly demonstrated either any lack of powers on their behalf or your behalf to implement policies and the decisions that you wish to take?

Huw Jones

I think at the moment that's a difficult one to answer. There is due any week now the Assembly's strategy on sports and physical activity. I think the content of that will very much determine the answer to that particular question. We haven't detected in terms of contact with Ministers, also with the Culture Committee, that anybody has come back and said we can't do this. However, if we were writing a strategy, I think that would be a different matter. I think there are areas that need to be considered. There are areas in the education field, areas in terms of finance, local government, a whole host of areas whereby if there was relaxation or changes those powers could be considered. At the moment those issues haven't been considered, so they're not on the political agenda.

Ted Rowlands

If you were writing a strategy, you'd identify areas where you wouldn't have powers to do things?

Huw Jones

That's right.

Ted Rowlands

Be specific.

Huw Jones

If we looked at, for example, dual use of school sports facilities, I think everybody would agree in principle that's a good thing in terms of the best use of physical assets and public provision. That is underpinned by some quite complex legislation both in terms of the Education No. 2 Act of 1986, Education Reform Act of 1988...

Ted Rowlands

Education Act?

Huw Jones

Education No 2 Act 1986, which actually deals with the role and responsibility of school governors. It involves the Education Reform Act 1988, which discusses the allocation of funding between curriculum and extra-curriculum uses. Also, the Education Act 1991, which deals with the transfer of control arrangements between the management of facilities between, let's say, a leisure department and schools. So, the whole thing is quite a complex issue for something which is relatively simple.

Vivienne Sugar

Don't forget the Children Act.

Huw Jones

And the Children Act, whatever it is – 1992? So, it is fairly complex.

Vivienne Sugar

This situation applies in England as well, for dual use of English schools so...

Huw Jones

The reason I cite that is, as an example, dual use is much more prevalent in Wales and much more of an important issue particularly in rural areas because it would be silly to provide a leisure centre then also try and provide school facilities on the same site. We have lots of examples over the years where county authorities and district authorities didn't talk to each other and we've had duplication of facilities, and the challenge local authorities have had over many years is how do we rationalise that, how do we control the funding of that? There are excellent examples around, but also very poor examples around as well.

Ted Rowlands

Did you say there was an Education Act of 2000 that transferred a huge raft of responsibilities in curricula and all sorts of activities to the Welsh Assembly Government, National Assembly? Did you seek to incorporate in that legislation the kind of alterations to allow you to do that?

Huw Jones

No, we didn't. The reason was that it wasn't on the political agenda, so the chances of that occurring were quite small. Given the fact...

Ted Rowlands

On the Assembly agenda?

Huw Jones

On the Assembly's agenda. Particularly with the strategy being forthcoming, the Assembly needs to take a view about those areas it wishes to address, then seek to identify those, rather than just be opportunistic, which we've probably been accused of.

Paul Valerio

I think you said there were two examples.

Huw Jones

A second example which comes to mind is to do with the funding of voluntary sports clubs and rate relief for voluntary sports clubs. There has always been a reluctance to give mandatory 80% relief to voluntary sports clubs, particular most local authorities, because it's seen as a cost implication. In the early 1990s, there was an arrangement that was established whereby local authorities could be compensated centrally if they made that decision. But, at the moment, the situation is it is only if you have charitable status that you have a mandatory right to 80% rate relief. Let's say within the sports policy it was deemed that voluntary sports clubs played a very significant role in health promotion, contributing to the social agendas of communities, whatever. In my view, that can't be done at the moment in terms of saying, therefore, if a club can show it's contributed in that type of way then it should receive 80% rate relief. That could be a very important factor in terms of the promotion of voluntary sports clubs.

Paul Valerio

Although that's a general point to the UK, because of the particular strategy that the Assembly wishes to pursue this is now a UK strategy.

Huw Jones

That's right.

Huw Thomas

Gareth, you said something very early on to which we were sort of left hanging and I'm wondering if you'd care to expand. I'm turning it round: you said relations had been better with the Assembly. I just wondered if you'd care to expand on that?

Lord Richard

Tell us when.

Gareth Davies

What I then went on to explain is I think that this arms length arrangement relationship is a challenge for both sides. It's not a case of turning blame on to the Assembly. It's something we have to manage in terms of the direction. We're an Assembly sponsored public body. I think what we require then is the guidance, directions, scrutiny that should come along with that. All too often, possibly, we feel that there is a lot of work going on outside the relationship between the Assembly and ourselves where possibly The Sports Council is being undermined on occasions and the sports strategy the Assembly drew up – we weren't actually consulted at all in terms of drawing up the strategy. It just seems a little bit odd. So, I just think there have been a few – it is really some anecdotal incidents you could relate as opposed to a conscious swing in policy. There aren't written guidelines as to how the relationship has changed; it's something that's organically happened over the last 18 months.

Lord Richard

Is there a reason, do you think?

Dr Laura McAllister

What representations did you make, given you weren't consulted? How did you handle your own complaints?

Gareth Davies

It came to light from partners. This was being formulated – again, it does start to undermine ourselves in terms of the way we deal with be it governing bodies or local authorities or voluntary clubs, et cetera.

Huw Jones

In terms of the structural relationships and how these are looked at, if we go back we were established by Royal Charter in 1972. Many of the other public bodies in Wales weren't established by Royal Charter, apart from ourselves, Arts Council, National Library, National Museum of Wales. Most of the others – WTB, CCW, whatever – are statutory bodies. The first question is why were some bodies established as Royal Charter bodies and some as statutory bodies? My view is very much that we were established – not there to discharge, not as an agent of the Government of the day, but to develop sport for the benefit of the people of Wales, not the benefits of the Government of the day. Having said that, within the Charter there is an article in there which says the Council shall have regard to the policies of the Government of the day. So, that is our statutory – quasi-statutory relationship with the Assembly. By that we've interpreted it as meaning we should follow the policies of the Government of the day unless we've got very good reason not to follow those policies, and, we do so, if there was a competitive tendering issue or anything like that; policies in relation to social deprivation, education, clearly it's right and proper we should follow those particular policies. I think the issues and challenges come when the discussions lead to a lower level than that about involvement in programmes or particular schemes or particular initiatives and I think that's where the potential conflict can arise in relation to what is our role as distinct with what is the Assembly's role.

Vivienne Sugar

Some micro-management, you suggest, is going on, that they're getting involved in the details.

Huw Jones

That's a reasonable way in which to put it.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

In paragraph 12, you make a slightly Delphic remark about this, talking about making it more challenging when seeking to influence policy. Could you expand on that a little bit?

Huw Jones

I think, Chairman, obviously when you have bodies such as the Arts Council for Wales and The Sports Council for Wales, we prepare lottery strategies and we've discussed our lottery strategy with Ministers. Clearly, if there is disagreement, we resolve those issues.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

That's with the Welsh Ministers?

Huw Jones

With the Welsh Ministers. To be perfectly honest, there wasn't any fundamental disagreements in terms of that policy development and we've continued to discharge that lottery strategy. There are greater challenges and this is more for Assembly Ministers to answer rather than us in relation to how the Assembly can influence UK bodies. It is certainly more challenging, I think would be their view on matters, particularly when those bodies clearly want to discharge a consistent approach throughout the UK.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Do you sometimes go direct to the UK bodies, or do you go through the Assembly Government or with the Assembly Government?

Huw Jones

In terms of the relationship with the National Lottery, we would go direct to UK bodies.

Lord Richard

Which ones?

Huw Jones

The New Opportunities Fund and the Communities Fund. The New Opportunities Fund and the Communities Fund, it is proposed they'll amalgamate now. That will probably be formally announced within the White Paper. I don't think there is any secret about that. The idea has been floated quite extensively. The combined body will actually then distribute half of the lottery funds throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. So, it will become a very, very large body, which will make it even more challenging in terms of relationships.

Lord Richard

You'll go direct to them to argue about strategy; you wouldn't do it through the Assembly?

Huw Jones

Only if we had practical problems, even if we felt we weren't getting there.

Lord Richard

None of this is a question of the Assembly having greater powers?

Huw Jones

No, the Assembly having greater powers would be over how those UK bodies actually spend their money in Wales.

Vivienne Sugar

But you've said the forthcoming sports strategy will be a test and will help to show whether there is any need for any additional powers; that's what I think you said earlier in paragraph 17 as well. When is the strategy due to be published, so that we know whether it will inform our work?

Huw Jones

We understand it will be any week now.

Ted Rowlands

Could I pursue a little more this relationship between yourself – and we've taken evidence from at least one other major quango about the problems of, in a way, having the double accountability, one to a Minister and Government and also to a Committee as well. Would you welcome a kind of proper formal memorandum of understanding establishing or attempting to define the kind of relationship between a body like yourself and the Assembly? There isn't one. They don't exist at the moment. One senses you try to define the difference between scrutiny and interference, basically. Would you welcome that and, if so, any thoughts what that memorandum should contain?

Gareth Davies

One thing that would be useful – I'm not sure if Huw would agree – is the remit of the Committee as opposed to the Assembly Government. That is one area which I think we are slightly confused with.

Ted Rowlands

You're not alone.

Gareth Davies

Some of the scrutiny tends to take place at these Committee meetings we'd have, which, at the end of the day, is fairly superficial because you're allocated an hour, and make a quarter of an hour presentation and have a few questions. The closer scrutiny in terms of achievements, for example – are we delivering to our corporate plan, to our operational plan; what is our record of achievement during that particular year? – which I think should be happening with civil servants at the Assembly Government.

Ted Rowlands

It is or isn't happening, or should be happening?

Gareth Davies

Should be happening, but, again from my feedback, isn't happening there, whereas it seems to me that it's the headline matters are discussed at that level where it shouldn't be; it should be the real nub of our business in terms of how are we functioning, are we doing well, are we producing athletes, are we making inroads into areas of deprivation, giving people in Wales an equal chance? Those are the sort of discussions I think the sponsor division should be dealing with us, whereas perhaps the Culture Committee should – it's almost as if roles are reversed in terms of what the Culture Committee should be doing.

Ted Rowlands

Sounds like a skeleton idea of what a memorandum could include.

Huw Jones

That would be a good idea, particularly in terms of respective roles of the various bodies, not just the Executive and Administration, but also the Committee and ourselves in terms of who's going to be doing what and how we fit in together.

Dr Laura McAllister

Can I go back to the issue of the National Lottery, and I should publicly declare my interests as a member of UK Sport at this point. I wonder if you could say a little bit more, Huw and Gareth, about where you feel the current arrangements hinder distinctive policy development, developmental policy orientation in terms of lottery spend in Wales? You hint at that in paragraphs 12 to 14 and suggest, should there be greater devolution of Wales over lottery money, there would be a capacity to vary percentage spend and so on according to need that relates to Wales. Can you give us some concrete examples of where you might wish to spend money differently if that was feasible and possible?

Huw Jones

I think obviously the first thing to say is the Assembly are very keen on having those powers and they have formally adopted that position within plenary sessions in the Assembly. Obviously if we had additional powers, and if we had additional funds as a result of those powers, then, clearly, as that would be one of our statutory roles, we'd be discharging, as distinct from our Royal Charter role, then we would be subject to the powers of policy direction. I suspect that those policy direction powers, if we could seek to influence them, then we'd obviously want to influence them in areas where we have low participation in sport. Areas where we have low participation in sport are almost invariably deprived areas, so if we could influence the policy that's probably the greatest area where we want to influence it.

Gareth Davies

It's probably worth saying that the monies that we receive from the National Lottery – because we're the one distribution body, plus we're grant aided – I think I marry them both up. We're not just a grant aid organisation distributing monies for projects. Those projects do tie into our strategy. I would argue it is fairly effective and strategic distribution of monies. It's not a case of a club or body coming to us with a grandiose scheme of providing a hall or swimming pool. We're mindful of the fact that we're spending these grant aid monies, albeit lottery monies, in a fairly strategic approach.

Tom Jones

There is no difference in this scenario between yourselves and Scotland. Scottish distributors have the same problems and they're all calling for the same devolution of powers.

Huw Jones

Absolutely.

Gareth Davies

When the lottery was introduced in 1994 all lottery monies were subject to capital spend. As time has rolled on, I think we now have a 55/45 split in favour of capital. 45% of monies are spent on revenue schemes, which obviously take into account the political agenda. It's not just buildings in places.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

You mentioned earlier co-operation between schools' sports facilities – I think that is what you meant – and local authorities' sports facilities. Does the same issue arise at all with private educational institutions? I mean, universities or public schools, that kind of thing.

Huw Jones

It certainly doesn't arise in terms of public schools because we don't have significant numbers of them in Wales - it isn't really a strategic problem. We have certainly tried to involve independent schools in our various schemes such as the Girls First Scheme where we want to get more girls, in particular, involved in sport and physical activity. In that instance, we have involved independent schools. That's just small-scale revenue funding. We wouldn't try to exclude them. The Assembly was quite supportive of that principle. As far as universities are concerned, that isn't a problem. We work quite closely with universities and some of our biggest schemes have been on university sites. For example, the 50 metre pool that has been built in Swansea and is now open, that was a partnership between the university and the local authority with lottery funding being the main mechanism by which it was supported, but it was that partnership which has worked very well. The same in Cardiff at the University of Wales Institute Cardiff, in Cyncoed, with the National Indoor Athletic Centre provided there. The same is true in North Wales as well with the North East Wales Institute in Wrexham where we've developed with them a significant regional facility there and we agreed the other week to put a regional artificial turf pitch in there, primarily for hockey tournaments in North Wales. The relationship with the higher education sector is a very close one.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is there provision for the use of these facilities by the public? Is that built in too?

Huw Jones

Yes, it is. We'd ensure there is a service level agreement of contractual obligations for a certain period of time to ensure access.

Tom Jones

This Royal Charter business, does the Secretary of State for Wales have anything to do with that? Do you have any links with his office?

Huw Jones

No, it doesn't. The original powers in the Royal Charter were vested with the Secretary of State for Wales, but, on the establishment of the Assembly – this was prior to the Government of Wales Act being introduced – we changed those powers to the National Assembly for Wales, so there is no link with the Secretary of State any longer.

Vivienne Sugar

Could I ask about the concordat between the Assembly and DCMS where you said you believe one existed but you hadn't actually seen it? If we were to ask our secretariat to get a copy, where should they start?

Huw Jones

I think with the Culture, Sport and Welsh Language Directorate of the Assembly; that would be the best place.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much indeed for coming. You've exposed issues we hadn’t previously thought about. Now we have.