COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

TUC Wales

held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 13 JUNE 2003

In Attendance

Lord Richard, Chair, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Peter Price, Richard Commission

Dr Laura McAllister, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Vivienne Sugar, Richard Commission

Eira Davies, Richard Commission

Huw Thomas, Richard Commission

Jeff Evans - PCS

Graham Smith - Amicus

Jim Hancock - T&G

Allan Garley - GMB

Felicity Williams - Wales TUC

Proceedings

Lord Richard

What we have asked people to do giving evidence is first of all to identify themselves for the sake of the record so that we have you all down on paper and then to open up the discussion, perhaps 5 or 10 minutes, and then we can pursue after that whatever issues you think would be helpful, if that is all right.

Felicity Williams

I am Felicity Williams. I am the Assistant General Secretary of the Wales TUC.

Graham Smith

I am Graham Smith. I am a member of the Wales TUC General Council and also a regional officer.

Jeff Evans

Geoff Evans, I am a member of the General Council of Wales TUC and executive. My day job is with the PCS, which is a public sector union represents civil servants in Wales, including those of the National Assembly.

Jim Hancock

I am Jim Hancock, Wales TUC and I am also Regional Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union.

Allan Garley

Allan Garley, member of the Wales TUC General Council and Regional Secretary of the GMB.

Felicity Williams

Hopefully you have all had a copy of the submission. I would like to start by explaining the position of the Wales TUC in terms of the Assembly and devolution, which is that we are and have been all along very supportive of the principles of devolution and it has been noticeable since we have had the Assembly here in Wales that the trade unions in Wales have taken that on board in terms of the number of motions that relate to devolved powers and Assembly issues that come through for our annual conference. Indeed, this year the vast majority of those motions were related to areas in which the Assembly has either full devolved powers or an interest and some influence, and we are very keen to see that continue and grow here in Wales. We are very keen to continue to work closely with the Assembly in whatever form it takes, and I think you see from our submission it is clear that we do believe there is room for the Assembly to grow and we have slipped that particularly into two areas and in terms of the powers which the Assembly has now and which we would envisage perhaps it should have in the future.

There are four points on that particular aspect, and there are issues that we would have and perhaps explanation we might want to give on each of those. Similarly, on the electoral arrangements, I think our recommendations there are quite clear. They are different from the existing situation that we have here in Wales, and there are reasons for that and that has been a considered position taken by the unions represented by the Wales TUC. All of this information is the subject of a special debate that we held at our annual conference just a couple of weeks ago.

So the submission that you have is on behalf of the TUC as an umbrella organisation for the TUC in Wales. It is an agreed position which all of the unions affiliated to the TUC have had an opportunity to consider and to agree, and it does represent the views of those organisations.

Lord Richard

Do you want to run through the four points?

Felicity Williams

Certainly.

Lord Richard

And then perhaps you could expand on the paper a bit.

On point 1, we are particularly concerned following yesterday's announcements, and we had some concerns yesterday about the brute force of Parliamentary bills and ensuring that there was sufficient influencing opportunity to have that scrutiny and I think that is perhaps even more of a concern and this has even more significance following the announcement yesterday of the reshuffle of the cabinet. We are no clearer I think than anybody else of exactly what the ramifications of that announcement yesterday are going to be, but clearly there will be ramifications for that and it is our view in the discussions that we had this morning that it makes it even more important that there is a mechanism, and a robust mechanism, for prelegislative scrutiny by National Assembly committees.

Clearly, we have a concern about how issues that the Assembly wish to see in legislation can now be brought to the cabinet table and can be got on to the statute book, if there is not a direct cabinet voice representing Wales. It is not clear from yesterday's announcements, nor certainly from what I have heard thus far today, exactly what that position is going to been the future. So we do have some concerns there.

Again, on point 2, that has become perhaps even more unclear following yesterday's announcement. We have a couple of examples in mind of where we feel there have been issues where these powers of the Assembly and the powers of Westminster have become somewhat confused, and most particularly in the eye of the electorate. I think it is very difficult for them to understand. One of the issues that we would quote would be the example of the foundation hospitals the NHS in England clearly going down that route and Wales choosing to do things in a different manner and a lot of confusion being created amongst the general public, as well as those of us who would like to think that we understand these things better about exactly what Wales can do when the Westminster Government changes their position, introduces something like foundation hospitals, whether the Assembly has to follow suit, whether it has to go through statute to do things differently. There is a lot of uncertainty about that.

Similarly with issue on top-up fees, university top-up fees where we have the Minister in Wales making an announcement on the position for Wales and in particular the media immediately jumping on the matter and saying, "Hang on a minute, that is not what Charles Clarke has said", who is right and who is wrong and there needing to be a period where clarification is sought. It is our view that even if that clarification is subsequently sought that must damage the impact of those decisions made by the Assembly and has damaged the impact and perhaps the delivery of those policies made here in the Assembly, and it will be much more difficult to get the electorate on the ground to buy into something that they are not quite sure was made and a decision that was made in quite the correct way in the first place and that whole cloud of confusion can do nothing to make it easier for the Assembly to work.

I also feel that it leads to probably delays in implementation of policy; certainly it can do, and that if there were much clearer guidelines of exactly where the powers lay then it would be easier to get things introduced much more quickly. So we believe that consideration should be given to extending that remit and there should be clearer and greater clarity and delineation.

If I move on to the third point: where we have the secondary powers devolved, it is again an area sometimes of confusion and sometimes of direct conflict between what the Assembly here in Wales would like to do and see to be done and what it is possible to do. For example, if I use maybe what could be seen as positive and negative examples, when the Children's Commission post was established here in Wales, very much welcomed, cross party agreement, and indeed something that was likely to be copied in other parts of the UK and indeed other areas of Europe, it was not possible for the Assembly to do that without having a legislative route through into Parliament. That inevitably meant a delay in what was a very important and necessary post being created and a piece of legislation going forward.

I have already talked about education top-up fees. We are in a position, or it seems that we will be, of Wales needing to opt out of the bill in England in order to go along with the route it wishes to go, and yet education is a devolved issue. There does not seem to be a great deal of logic of needing to opt out of the UK bill in order to pursue an area that is agreed and for which the Assembly has devolved powers.

One of the areas when I said a positive and a negative the issue of GM crops was clearly one that caused a lot of problems here in Wales with the Assembly taking a view on GM crops, the UK Government taking a different view and there being a lot of confusion over who could and who could not and whether the Assembly could indeed refuse to allow GM crops to be planted in Wales. That turned out not to be the case and, again, an example of where certainly the public would have been led to believe the Assembly did not have the powers that it needed in order to achieve the things that it wanted to see.

On the fourth point, which is transport, it is an area that we feel is particularly important; it is an area that is particular lay relevant to the economic growth and development that we would wish to see in Wales, and I think that is recognised not only by us in trade union organisations but also by the CBI and other business organisations; it is absolutely crucial that an integrated transport policy is able to be implemented in Wales, and it is also crucial that that will be able to be implemented in line with environmental policy, because the two things clearly need to go together. The difficulty that we see at the moment is that the Assembly is severely cramped because it does not have any ability to have an all Wales remit. For example, there is no opportunity to have an all Wales Transport Commission and an all Wales Transport Commissioner in order to look at a genuinely integrated and across Wales transport system that would enable those areas of economic growth and development to which I alluded to take place.

We have particular concerns over the issues of the Strategic Rail Authority and the lack of control here in Wales of that very important transport system, and for all of those reasons we are recommending, as we have in our paper, that the powers that the Assembly has should indeed be in most cases clarified and in some cases increased.

Do you want to deal with those?

Lord Richard

Let us deal with those before we move on to the elections.

The sort of thrust to what you are saying, it seems to me, is that the existing settlement there are clearly deficiencies in it and those deficiencies ought to be clarified and they ought to be tidied up. There is obviously a certain amount of difficulty in finding out exactly who has the powers to do what, and sometimes you think it is in London and sometimes you think it is in Cardiff and nobody is absolutely 100 per cent sure, and that in certain areas you would actually like primary legislative powers to be devolved to Cardiff rather than to London.

Can I press you a bit as to which areas you would like to be devolved?

Felicity Williams

Certainly transport is one of the areas that we would very much like to see devolved. I know, Jim, you have a particular interest in that.

Jim Hancock

For example, the point that has been made about the all Wales Traffic Commissioner. There used to be an all Wales Traffic Commissioner prior to 1986, South Wales, and all areas beyond that and it went to Wales and the West Midlands Traffic.

Lord Richard

Who abolished that?

Jim Hancock

It was the 1986 Transport Act when there was a reduction in the ability of the Traffic Commissioner's powers. When that was reduced in fact there were a large number of traffic examiners also reduced, and my union certainly believes that does not lend itself to good health and safety policy and transport safety policies, particularly where some of the contracts for buses are concerned and the opportunity of examining thoroughly and those buses may not be what it was prior to 1986: there is a process of privatisation there as well.

That is an area of great concern to us but equally it is of great concern because there are other issues surrounding that. The opportunity of co-ordinating and controlling transport we feel would be better were it under an all Wales Traffic Commission.

Lord Richard

What powers would you give it?

Jim Hancock

The same powers that they have now, but the powers purely for Wales, which is to monitor and police. I think perhaps we might even want to extend that, the Assembly might wish to extend that, to include powers that deal with rail and to deal equally with air and waterways transport too.

Vivienne Sugar

Could I just ask a supplementary there to Jim: we have heard evidence that perhaps it is the rigidity of the existing system and that the slowness of response on things like [inaudible] choices, and so on, and a decision has been made I think it is in Birmingham where people are not understanding local circumstances in rural areas; an example was given of the service in the Snowdonia National Park where there was a great difficulty in Gwynedd commissioning a new operator and there was also timescales and the fact that the Birmingham office was not responsive. So I think my question is whether it is an issue of understanding and responsiveness from the existing system, or whether you have really made the case for having an independent Wales separate commissioner.

Jim Hancock

I think it is both, but I think the difference is that if we had an all Wales Traffic Commissioner, or Transport Commissioner, that the funding arrangements would be such from the Assembly that they could ensure that there is an adequate service. I think the service is now inadequate because of the lack of funding, because of the reduction in the number of traffic examiners and equally the number of traffic commissioners.

Paul Valerio

I notice you have not mentioned anything about tax raising powers, obviously transport, and the budget, the existing budget that is allocated to it to come over, but unless you had any extra source of funding the situation is likely not to change materially.

Felicity Williams

You are quite correct that the submission does not make any recommendation for tax raising powers. As I said when I introduced this, this is the considered position of the Wales TUC as an umbrella organisation, and we have not taken a decision for or against recommending tax raising powers.

The individual trade unions that the Wales TUC represents will have their own views on that issue and, clearly, they may wish to make those recommendations to the Commission, but we as an organisation are not making any recommendation on that point at this time. But I do accept and we accept that what you say is quite correct, but we are not seeking to make a recommendation either way on that at this time.

Lord Richard

Thank you.

Peter Price

Can I ask on transport about how you would deal with the cross border aspects; and in particular when you talk about the powers of the Strategic Rail Authority and the possibility of the Transport Commissioner having powers which would include rail and services that would be partially serving England as well, how would you deal with those issues?

Jim Hancock

I think very much in the way that they are dealt with now. There is a liaison and there was a liaison prior to the 1986 act. The Traffic Commissioners do not act totally independently; they were in liaison with each other prior to the 1986 act and I think that would still apply and I think that would still apply; I see no reason for that not to apply.

Peter Price

So when you say devolved, for example, on the Strategic Rail Authority, how would you define the coverage? Are you talking about services whilst they are operating within Wales, or how would you define -- how would you draw that line and to whom would you devolve it?

Jim Hancock

I think we would want to devolve to the Welsh Assembly the opportunity of certainly co-ordinating the transport within Wales and if that transport goes beyond Wales, obviously we would need to co-ordinate that with the Department of Transport, but certainly within Wales, and there are issues specifically that are within the office that we do not have that authority over at this time, and it does cause concern. How, for example, could we co-ordinate the rail and bus timetables? We cannot do that, we have no authority to do that, and we feel there is a need to do that in order to provide the service that perhaps the people of Wales deserve.

Ted Rowlands

One of the genuine reserved powers that has not transferred even in all the whole areas of devolved functions like education and health has been the whole issue of remuneration of pay, conditions of service in the public sector. We have received evidence from some sections of the community saying they should be transferred, that you cannot run an education policy without powers over remuneration and conditions of pay and service, and the same has been maybe argued in the Health Service. Does the TUC have a position on this whole question of the transfer of these public services remuneration issues that have always been traditionally held in reserve in any transfer of power?

Jeff Evans

I represent civil servants who work for the National Assembly, and to all intents and purposes we have devolved pay at the moment. The Civil Service unified pay system was broken up a decade ago and each individual Civil Service department has its own pay scheme, so for the National Assembly, for example, it has its own pay system which is unique to the National Assembly. From my point of view it is something I would strongly advocate, because we have been able to tackle with Assembly politicians the issues which are close to our hearts, such as equal pay and we have made good progress.

As to the view of other unions, I have to say there is -- national pay agreements are cherished and I think there is a concern about regional pay, particularly after the announcement in the Budget and was repeated again with the Euro, and I suspect that the general view across the trade union movement is that national pay should remain in place.

Ted Rowlands

In health, or education, teachers' pay and health service pay should remain a UK reserved area of policy?

Felicity Williams

Certainly within the Health Service, the previous system of trusts and GP fundholding practices did cause and was recognised to cause significant recruitment problems and retention problems throughout the Health Service, people moving for money and with the places that have the most money being able to attract the best staff and there is a strong argument for having a national pay agreement and national standards of pay. There may be supplements as they are for London, some weighting areas for particular geographical areas, but they really need to be proved to be necessary to recruit and retain staff and enable them to live in those areas because those sorts of services need to be delivered equally well in all areas of the country and should not be dependent upon the prosperity or otherwise of particular geographical areas. Where there is good expertise it should be able to be employed across the country. That would be the opinion of the unions in the Health Service in the main.

Lord Richard

But you do end up in a sort of strange sort of conclusion on this, because if you devolve, for example, education further than it is at the moment, you would devolve the possibility of the Assembly doing something about say top-up fees, or university fees, or what have you, but you would not be able to on your sort of approach do anything about teachers' salaries.

Felicity Williams

No, no, but we are looking at the provision of the service of education, and trade unions at a UK level will be always seeking to improve the salaries of public sector workers or whatever workers they represent and --

Lord Richard

You might do better out of the Welsh Assembly.

Felicity Williams

Equally, we might not.

Jeff Evans

I think there are arguments for both. At the moment we appreciate the arguments for and against, and no doubt this is being talked about by teachers at this time, and we are aware of the Scottish pay settlement, for example, but I think at the moment the general feeling is that the arguments against just outweigh arguments in favour because of the concerns about the regional pay.

Ted Rowlands

Interestingly, the National Assembly Membership Service is actually a totally discrete, now negotiated on pay and conditions, pensions and the whole lot?

Jeff Evans

The National Assembly and its funded bodies, the quangos, are all separate bargaining units for the purposes pay and conditions of service, and it is my job to negotiate on behalf of them.

Ted Rowlands

Has it created many variations between that and your English counterparts in say the Department of Transport or DEFRA?

Jeff Evans

I would say that we now have arguably one of the best pay systems in the Civil Service, because we are in tune with the politicians on things like equal pay which the people in Whitehall have not quite cottoned on to. There is a real dynamic Equality agenda in Wales which we can all be proud of. So the National Assembly is a good example of devolved pay. But, as I say, I think certain other public sector unions are not at that position yet.

Allan Garley

Can I just reiterate the point Felicity made that there is certainly -- within the recommendations to yourself, there is no consideration of moving away from the national framework and bargaining of pay negotiations. Again, it is an issue that individual unions may well have their own views on and they will put those views to you via the procedures.

Huw Thomas

Ted actually went to the main area I wanted to explore, but I would just like to round off this discussion in terms of the NHS. The points you are making earlier about the foundation hospitals was the foundation hospitals are supposedly to have a greater freedom terms of pay, and so on. In the NHS, we still are in the market where if you look at both North East and South East Wales provision flows across the national border, and your comments earlier though, you said you wanted greater clarity in terms of what the Assembly's powers were in the NHS to opt out or develop its own policies. Could you just expand on that, because after all, we have had two bits of major legislation which the Assembly has seen through changing and reshaping the NHS in Wales, and I am curious there is still some sort of confusion around it.

Felicity Williams

I think one of the issues has been around the introduction of foundation hospitals on the borders between England and Wales and how that establishment of those hospitals might affect the provision of care for people who live in Wales and perhaps use those services. So that is one area that is not clear for people, and that is certainly an area that is going to continue to raise its head as that process is delivered, because we have the policy of health care in Wales being delivered locally through the local health boards, but we do have on the fringes the provision of care through other means; some of those will be foundation hospitals. So that is an area that has caused confusion. Wales knew where it was going with the local health board structure and then the structure in England changes and it clearly has implications for patients in Wales.

When the announcement on foundation hospitals was originally made at the Westminster Parliament, there was a great deal of speculation, and I accept that a lot of the speculation is led by the media, but then that has an effect on the perception of the Assembly and its role within Wales and it has affects for organisations like our own that seek to work with it. There was a great deal of speculation about whether that would then mean that the Assembly was no longer able to go ahead with its provision for local health boards. Would it have to reconsider? When that provision of local health broad was announced there was a lot of speculation that that would have to be agreed by the UK Health Minister and how that process would work. There very often seems to me to be almost a playoff between the two areas, where there are those who when a new policy is announced within Wales their immediate response to it is not whether it is a good policy, the right policy for Wales, what it can deliver for Wales and how it can deliver for Wales, but whether it is going to be allowed by the Westminster Parliament, and that is what takes the precedent when these announcements are made. It is not a consideration of actually what the policies are and whether they are delivering in the best way for Wales, and that takes away from the focus of the initial announcements and the opportunity for people to really get on board behind those announcements and put their weight behind making sure that they do actually deliver for Wales.

Huw Thomas

There seem to be two points you are making and I just want a clear understanding: one is of course a fact of life that there will always be that border difference, and so you are going to get that play-off between England and Wales as we head down on devolution. But a second: was it because the Assembly was not fast enough in saying, "Yes, this announcements taking place in England but in Wales we will"? In other words, was it because there was a gap whilst confusion spread?

Felicity Williams

I do not know whether anyone else wants to, but it is not for me to comment on whether there is a gap between what the Assembly announced and what the media presented and produced. I do not know whether there was a gap between those two. I do know that there was confusion over that issue and it is not the first or the any only time that that confusion has been apparent. What the mechanism is between that I am not privy to, what the reasons directly behind that are, but certainly the impression that one is left with is that for the vast majority of people in Wales, unless you are the sorts of individuals -- I had this discussion again earlier this morning -- who are linked into the processes in Wales and the Welsh media and the Welsh press and you take the Western Mail, or whatever paper, every day you are not going to be up on the developments that are happening in Wales. What you are going to be up on are the developments that are happening in England with maybe a bit of a spin on how it might affect Wales. Now I do not think that is entirely because of the way that the Assembly chooses to release its information, and I realise that the media is not the purpose of this Commission, but I think it is a fact that that difficulty is there.

Vivienne Sugar

I want to go back to the issue of primary powers. In the first few months of the Commission we had all the Welsh Assembly Government ministers come to give evidence, and the vast majority told us that the issue of primary powers was not an important one for them. There were some exceptions to that around justice and Home Office functions, but in the main they were saying that they could do, the Assembly could achieve what it wanted to achieve without primary powers.

You are making the case that where there is secondary power now there should be primary power and quoting education, health and so on. Could you just give me an idea of what were these resolutions that have gone to the Wales TUC conference calling on the Assembly to do things which would need the Assembly to have primary powers to implement it, just to sort of bring it alive for me and give me some practical examples?

Jeff Evans

It is difficult for us to comment. We are not legal experts and we are not experts when it comes to Government bills and the Welsh Act and we are perfectly open and honest on that. To some extent, what we are saying is that there needs to be a fundamental cultural change in Whitehall in particular. I talk to a lot of senior civil servants and we get the same thing coming back: when it comes to drawing up legislation which affects England and Wales and Whitehall, Wales is and after thought, and that has to change. The role of this Commission hopefully would be to put an end to that, to make sure that when Whitehall civil servants are determining their policy that Wales is right in the forefront of their thoughts.

Lord Richard

I am sorry for that, but that is not the function of this Commission. The function of this Commission is not to say whether Whitehall is doing its job properly in relation to Wales but to say whether or not we think Wales should be doing its own job for Wales.

Jeff Evans

I suppose there is a natural follow-up from that about the clarification of powers and the additional powers as well.

Jim Hancock

One of the examples that we discussed this morning was social housing and the ability of the Welsh Assembly Government to say, "Sorry but we are not taking part in the transport and housing", or whatever the case might be. We have seen an example of co-operative housing, but should the Welsh Assembly decide that there is a mistake; it cannot be transferred for whatever reason, they do not have that power or ability. We feel that that should be there. That is a living example.

Felicity Williams

I suppose to a certain extent we have made a great deal of progress locally on the Assembly with the issues of the two-tier workforce funding of public schools and hospitals. Those are issues that come to my mind. Public private partnership, that is what I was looking for, PFI. Again, an issue that the Welsh Assembly is seeking to use to the absolute minimum but does not actually have perhaps as much power as we would like them to have to be able to take those decisions, because clearly there are Treasury implications on that funding, and we have been able to make a great deal of progress here in Wales and we have been very pleased with recent announcements on projects that have not gone down the PPP/PFI route. However, you have asked for examples of resolutions of our conference. The Assembly would not have been able to take decisions and that is another example of that.

Vivienne Sugar

Do you seriously think that there is any prospect of Treasury powers being transferred to the Assembly, because what you are talking about is a particular policy about how money is raised. Primary powers for health, education, or for housing to the Assembly, you would not necessarily solve your PFI problem.

Felicity Williams

Not necessarily, and it might not be about how money is actually raised, but it might well be about how money is used, but perhaps there is room for more autonomy in how money is used.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is it not a bit illogical to complain about this match between Westminster and Cardiff, the implementation of policies, particularly on the Health Service, and also to say that you have no view whether Cardiff should be able to raise additional money? Supposing, you want to give care to the elderly as they do in Scotland, well, the provisions under Barnett are not as generous for Wales as they are for Scotland, and supposing you really wanted to do it it might mean depending on [inaudible].

Felicity Williams

As I said to you earlier, if we were giving evidence here as individuals or as representatives of individual unions there would clearly be views that were expressed on that issue. However, it is not something that the Wales TUC has taken a view on. That does not mean that individual trade unions do not have a view on it; they do, and if they wish to express that view they have that opportunity, and it certainly does not mean that we as individuals would not have a view on that. However, we are not in a position to express a view on that as the Wales TUC.

Vivienne Sugar

I just want to come back and say it would be very helpful to us if you could give us over the next week or two any worked up examples where primary powers would be necessary for the Assembly to implement something that you are calling on them to do so that we can go back to the Welsh Assembly Government ministers and say, "Come on, you told us you didn't need primary powers. Wales TUC is saying you cannot do this unless you have them, can you please respond to that" so that we can take a view about which side is --

Allan Garley

If I can comment briefly on that, while I do not think there is a contradiction between the Wales TUC outlining in point 3 the areas where we believe secondary powers could be extended, or certainly consideration should be given to extending the powers and the fact that we do not have any formal policy in relation to tax raising powers, as is already explained on that point, but just, again, as an example in relation to I think it was earlier Vivienne asked about the Wales TUC and any examples, just to take the issue of public procurement, which is not actually listed in the Wales TUC submission to you, but it certainly would be an area where the Wales TUC firmly takes a view that, I believe it is £9 billion spent in Wales in obtaining the uniforms for the armed forces, the uniforms for the fire service and all of the various uniforms in the NHS, and nurses' uniforms and all of the subsidiary uniforms required to run the public services, the vast majority of those garments are presently bought, and the TUC view is quite simply that if that £9 billion was spent in Wales by a manufacturer company producing those uniforms, producing those, that would have the effect of (1) increasing the number of people employed in those factories; (2) it would have the effect of recycling that money into the Welsh economy, and obviously that would have a very substantial benefit to Wales in itself.

At the present time the Assembly believes that they have no powers to make the decision not to send that £9 billion abroad. The Wales TUC would like to believe that the Assembly does have the powers to actually make that political decision to change its policy, and that is certainly one of the areas that we would like clarification on that is already referred to by Felicity and my colleagues, and if the clarification is not in our favour then we would like the secondary powers to be increased so that we do have the power to make that political decision.

Lord Richard

That is the problem, is it not? You put your finger on the root of the limb. You cannot expect devolution in those areas that you would like. It is a bit difficult to say, "If we cannot get it out of the Assembly at the moment then they ought to have powers to do that". It has to be a rather more broadly based devolution.

Allan Garley

I can only respond on the basis of I was asked the question and I have answered it. You are asking for an example of how an extension of powers --

Vivienne Sugar

There was a very good article by Kevin Morgan in the Western Mail about purchasing food supplies for school meals which of course is this very issue when he is arguing that the Assembly is being overcautious in its interpretation, but I think it is also bound with Europe, and so on.

Felicity Williams

I suppose there also is the point that evidence was taken from the Assembly Ministers, I think you said at the beginning of your inquiry. We would have additional concerns again following yesterday's announcements as to whether the process that they perhaps were content with previously might now not be quite the same process in the future.

Lord Richard

I do not think anybody knows yet.

Felicity Williams

No, nobody does know, but I think certainly the submission that -- nothing that has happened recently would make us any more content about the powers to do what we want.

Dr Laura McAllister

I want to ask you a more general question, which is really trying to take advantage of your status as one of the largest representative bodies coming before us. Can you explain for us a little bit about where you think the disengagement amongst your members, assuming they are representative, broadly speaking of the Welsh population with the Assembly lies? Is it, given that 62 per cent of the population did not vote in the elections recently, what kind of feel do you get from your own membership about where the disillusion, or apathy or antipathy lies? Is it based on the limited powers? Is it based on latter of clarity about the settlement and the policy output? Is it based on the electoral system? Is it based on equality of numbers? Can you give us a feel?

Felicity Williams

I think it is probably based on all of those things, and one of the difficulties that I always face, both as an individual and as a representative in an organisation, when I am asked, as we quite often are, about what the issues around disillusionment with the electoral system is, I am always tempted to say that I am the wrong person to ask because I am not disillusioned and I understand it no more than anybody else does. I think that certainly in terms of the Assembly elections, this confusion over what exactly it is that the Assembly is (a) there to do for Wales; and (b) can and is doing for Wales is having an effect, perhaps not so much on the younger voters, who seem to be perhaps disillusioned with politics at all levels, but perhaps with some of the more established voters who would traditionally turn out for Local Authority and UK elections, but perhaps not in the same way for National Assembly elections.

From a personal point of view I certainly know that there are a number of people who found -- and I know we will come on to the electoral arrangements in a moment -- who find the current electoral system of the list member and the constituency member extremely confusing, and it seemed to me on poling day this year that there was no less confusion about what you did with the great long additional ballot paper 4 years on than there had been the very first time when I, just as an individual, witnessed a dozen or so people coming out of the poling booths still clutching the second paper because they had not a clue what they were supposed to do with it. So there are issues there.

Whether anybody else wants to come in on the views of their members directly as you would represent individual members, rather than me as a representative of an umbrella organisation.

Jim Hancock

I think there are a number of reasons really. First of all, I think the Assembly had a very difficult birth and I think we all recognise that. The fact that we had 2 or 3 proposed leaders in the early days did not help, but I equally believe that there is certainly inside the last 12 months the shift in opinion amongst all members, mainly as a result of the positive things coming from the Assembly. In particular I would refer to the free bus passes, or disabled pensions, and we campaigned for those things for 20 years and when they finally come about people grab it and say, "That is very nice, thank you very much" and everything else, but there are certainly changes in views amongst our members as a result of that. But there is equally concern that perhaps it has not got enough authority and powers to deliver the things that people want to see delivered. I would hope that this next year will see a substantial shift and I think the creation of certain Ministry for Social Justice would help in that direction, because it does go across a lot of the area and perhaps we can tackle some of the issues with that particular body. But equally, as Felicity has said, I think there is total confusion and concern about the electoral system. People understood the old system and First Past the Post. It seems to work very well in Westminster and they cannot understand why it perhaps did not work within Wales and in the Welsh Assembly.

For years that has been the system that has been adopted; people know who their representative is and they vote for their representative and identify them. They are not quite so sure under this system because they may have 6 representatives in one constituency and that really is a confused issue and if people who are active in the political world do not know who their list members are then obviously people who are not so active would not know who their list members are.

Ted Rowlands

I think we are heading to the electoral system. Just one question before we do it. One of the consequences, if we move too Scottish model, of primary legislation and in a Scottish Parliament and a Welsh equivalent is that there would be a reduction of members at Westminster; that is the quid pro quo. Presumably, the Wales TUC are sanguine about that as a consequence of the transfer of power.

Felicity Williams

I think certainly in the debate that we had at conference the unions recognised that there would be consequences of the sorts of policy that we are seeking to perform. They recognised that and have accepted that and agree with our submission on that.

Lord Richard

Can I sum-up the position on this before we move on to the electoral arrangements. As I understand it, and I think it is very important to be clear about this, that broadly speaking you would be in favour of extending the Assembly's powers in a way which clarifies what it is that they are entitled to do and particularly in areas where at the moment there seems to be confusion as between the Assembly's powers and Westminster's powers. Is that right? Thank you very much.

Right, elections.

Felicity Williams

Again, there are four bullet points, somewhat more sequential perhaps than the previous one of necessity.

Our view at the moment, as Jim began to explain, is that the current system is very confusing and it is very complex. It is not clear and it is not easy for people to understand and there is the concern of what can be termed as the double banking position, where individuals who wish to stand for election can choose to stand to vote for their constituency seat and on the list seat, and I think the problems, both practical problems and problems of perception that that can lead to -- and certainly that is not a system that we feel best represents the people in Wales.

In our proposals our recommendations are quite clear. We are recommending that the additional member list system as it currently stands should be abolished, that all Assembly Members should be elected by the First Past the Post electoral system and that should be from the existing Westminster constituencies. We believe that that should be 2 members per constituency. Yes, that would mean an increase in the number of members at the Assembly, but we believe firmly that that would give far better representation and would have far greater accountability than does the current list system where, as Jim said, in an individual constituency you could have up to 6 representatives only one of whom actually has any direct constituency responsibility and any direct constituency links and has as an individual candidate been chosen by the electorate in that area.

We would wish to see equality, the principles that we have for equality in Wales continued. We do have equality within the National Assembly, following the last election. We have an equal number of male and female representatives but that is actually somewhat by luck more than by the process, and we would be clear that in an 80 member Assembly, 2 members per constituency; each constituency should be represented by one man and one woman.

We believe that the proposals that we have put before you there give a clear and accountable electoral system. It gives equality, but most importantly it gives accountability.

One of the issues of the current system where you go to the ballot box and you have your ballot paper, where you elect your constituency representative, you are in many cases voting as much for an individual as for a political party and people will make a choice on the stand very often that the individual putting themselves up has made and the policies and the discussions that you may have had with that individual.

The second vote as it exists at the moment of necessity has to be for a party. It cannot be used in any other way. So, for example, it is not possible for an independent candidate to stand on the list system. The list system is very much geared towards the political party mechanism, and we do not believe that that is the best way to elect our members here in Wales.

There is and there has been a great deal of confusion about the role of the regional list members, about, as I say, their accountability, about their roles in individual constituencies. It can cause problems at local levels where you appear to have 2 different Assembly Members representing constituency, and representing individuals on a constituency basis and people clearly do not understand who their individual constituency Assembly member is and they certainly do not understand what the role of the regional membership should be.

So our recommendations are there. I think that they are quite clear and they do have, as I say, the backing of the trade unions in Wales.

Lord Richard

What about proportionality? Whatever else that system is, it certainly would not be a proportional electoral system, would it?

Felicity Williams

Clearly, the trade unions across Wales will have different views on proportionality and individuals will have different views on proportionality and representation. The agreed recommendations you have before you are clearly First Past the Post. One of the issues that I can perhaps elaborate on, if I return to the list system and where if you look at true proportionality and the results of the most recent election, the vast majority of votes cast on the list system were cast for one particular political party, yet that political party gained nothing out of that list system, despite having the largest number of votes cast in that section because of the First Past the Post.

Dr Laura McAllister

Sure, but, with respect, that is the nature of that hybrid system where it is a compensatory mechanism.

Felicity Williams

Exactly. For us as an organisation, rather than to come up with a number of alternative possibilities and mechanisms that might do otherwise, we have agreed that what we believe should happen should be an 80 member Assembly, First Past the Post, 2 members per constituency and one male and one female. That best represents the interests of the electorate in our view.

Jim Hancock

It does not address proportionality, and we are not trying to hide the fact that it does; it simply does not, as does the electoral system for Westminster; that does not either have proportionality, and yet when consideration was given to changing that, it was fairly quickly left alone, and I think that we have to recognise what the electorate deserve is a clear simple formula in order to elect their representatives. There is no accountability, or there is no accountability; we fail to see any justification in, for example, someone from Wales who may have come third in an election suddenly being foisted upon the electorate of that constituency by the system and that has happened and did happen on more than one occasion.

Paul Valerio

It is against the principles that were established with the Welsh Assembly that it should be a more inclusive form of Government, and this is one of the arguments that they still maintain is one of the reasons of its alleged success, because it is truly demonstrable that it had more inclusiveness from all political representations and the realistic conclusion is that if you have your proposals accepted that will be abolished. That is something that you do accept.

Jim Hancock

Yes. Can I respond specifically to that particular point about inclusivity and if we look at the inclusivity of the first 18 months of the Welsh Assembly, and I mentioned the difficult birth, there did not seem much inclusivity there. What was happening is that there were partisan party battles going on and the electorate were suffering and the people of Wales were suffering and were not given the service that they deserved and that they were funding as a result of that.

Allan Garley

If I can say in addition to that, inclusivity really does mean a close link between the Assembly Member and the constituency. Inclusivity does mean belonging and ownership, and the present system weakens the close link between the Assembly member and the constituency, does not provide belonging and ownership and basically allows individuals to be dependent upon the party machine, whatever party; for those individuals to be dependent on the party machine as to whether they get elected or not.

I believe, and the Wales TUC believes, that is one of the reasons why the Assembly in this area is actually becoming and moving into disrepute, and possibly is an answer to one of the questions asked about why people are not interested in the Assembly and the Assembly electorate, and we do believe that this is the system itself which has actually played a great part in putting the public off the Assembly and the elections.

Lord Richard

On your system of double member constituencies, on the basis of the votes cast on May 1^st, the Assembly would be overwhelmingly a Labour majority with I am not sure how many Tories there would be. 2. How many of the Plaid?

Dr Laura McAllister

The point that I was making in a sense is that a party should stick up for any political party, but the Conservative Party which would gain support from around 20 per cent of the Welsh population would not have any, or marginal representation in the institution, so 20 per cent of votes cast they would not have a voice directly.

Felicity Williams

They might have if a sufficiently strong candidate stood in a particular constituency. After all, if you had 2 candidates -- we are talking possibilities, are we not -- if you had two candidates standing in a constituency, in much the same way as in Local Authority elections there was for a long time a tradition of not only having party elected candidates and having independent members who successfully stood and were elected on their personal record in an area and that is a possibility.

Tom Jones

How does the male/female ratio kick in if the poll throws up the first 2 First Past the Post candidates being 2 females where does the male candidate come in?

Dr Laura McAllister

They are paired.

Tom Jones

Across all parties. Independents stand and they will have to find a pair.

Jim Hancock

An independent could stand and there may be no independent on the list. It could be a male independent and no female independent.

Lord Richard

When was it that the last independent got into the House of Commons?

Ted Rowlands

In Westminster --

Lord Richard

I was talking about Wales.

Vivienne Sugar

Having an increase to 80 representatives assumes primary powers. The justification for the increase from 60 to 80 would be because of the extra work that primary powers had given, so it would be what they do now.

Felicity Williams

Yes. It is the view, as I understand it -- and correct me if I am wrong -- it is the view of the Wales TUC that in order to have proper accountability and representation on a constituency basis that that would be better served by 80 members, two elected per constituency than by the current system of 40 members elected by constituency and 20 from the additional list.

Ted Rowlands

Could I ask you, and you understandably, and being a constituency member I appreciate the powerful link between the member and the constituency as being a fundamental basis of our representative democracy, if the constituency basis is the thing that compels your case, could you look at a system, I guess STV where you can have a multi-member seat, constituency based, but where you have a degree of proportionality, where the single transferable vote allows -- it maintains the constituency as a base. There is no floating regional list members; there is a constituency based representative system but in fact builds into it a single transferable vote system which then would make it rather more proportionate. Would the Wales TUC see that as an option?

Felicity Williams

That system was not part of the consideration that entered into the submission that we have made here today. Again, as I said earlier, individual organisations will have a view on each of the possible solutions and scenarios that there are, but following the discussions we had at our conference, our submission at this time is clearly First Past the Post.

Ted Rowlands

I just wondered whether STV was considered, because it does do the business of -- keeps a constituency basis, a representative democracy system, but as building some kind of proportionality. I am not advocating, but I am just asking whether it is a potential answer.

Jim Hancock

Were you at the conference centre in fact we have the preferred method of election which is this preferred method of election, but there was also consideration given to other -- we recognise that there are other methods of perhaps looking at this matter. What we wanted was that this matter be looked at and investigated, particularly in the light of what we said about the lack of accountability of the additional members who have little or no accountability to the electorate and equally who are very often, more often than not, actually foisted upon the electorate following defeat at the ballot box and that really does cause concern. We feel that under those circumstances what is happening is that they are not elected, they are selected by their party to represent Wales and represent a particular constituency. That in itself cannot be justified to the electorate and we really do think that needs good in depth examination.

Felicity Williams

The nature of the organisations that they are is such that in putting together a paper of recommendations like this, that has gone through our conference procedure, would mean we would need to come out with a recommendation which is an agreement. That is how the process goes. It does not mean there is not consideration, has not been consideration of other views and that any suggestions that came out would not be considered separately.

What we have done in here is coming to a view to submit to the Commission is put the questions through the democratic process and come up with the consensus view on what the best route would be, but there clearly are different views across the trade unions and across the individuals within those unions.

Lord Richard

So basically it is yes to more powers and no to the electoral system.

Felicity Williams

No to the current electoral system, yes.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much. That seems to be what has emerged. Can I thank you very much for coming. It has been a very useful hour and it is important that the TUC's views are made clear to us.

Felicity Williams

Thank you for the opportunity to give the evidence as well as submitting the paper.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much indeed.