COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

 Hywel Williams MP 

held at 

Boothroyd Room, Portcullis House, Westminster

on

 12 JUNE 2003 

In Attendance

Lord Richard, Chair, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Peter Price, Richard Commission

Dr Laura McAllister, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Vivienne Sugar, Richard Commission

Eira Davies, Richard Commission

Huw Thomas, Richard Commission

Hywel Williams MP

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much for coming. What we ask people to do is please introduce themselves for the sake of the record so that it is on the transcript, and then if you would like to open up the position for, I hope not 25 minutes, and then we will pursue what issues strike us.

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Hywel Williams, Plaid Cymru. Cyn hynny roeddwn yn gweithio yn y maes gwaith cymdeithasol a’r maes iechyd, a’r rheiny yw fy niddordebau arbenigol ar fy rhan fy hun a’m plaid.

Yn gyntaf, hoffwn ddiolch i chi am y cyfle hwn i ddod i gyflwyno rhai sylwadau fel aelod unigol o’r lle hwn. Mae’n sicr y bydd hon yn sesiwn fyrrach na’r un flaenorol, ond gobeithio y bydd yn un ddefnyddiol.

Hoffwn ddweud, gyda llaw, mor braf yw cael siarad Cymraeg yn y lle hwn gan nad ydyn ni fel rheol yn cael gwneud hynny, a dyna un o’r gwahaniaethau sylfaenol rhwng y fan hon a Chaerdydd. Er fy mod yn gallu siarad Saesneg yn gymharol dda, mae’n well gen i siarad Cymraeg, a gobeithio y byddaf yn fwy rhugl a bod hynny’n rhywbeth y bydd yr awdurdodau yn y lle hwn yn rhoi sylw iddo cyn hir.

Roeddwn i’n meddwl dechrau gyda rhai sylwadau cyffredinol iawn am fy mhrofiad fel AS ac yna rai sylwadau cyffredinol yn tarddu o ‘mhrofiad yn etholiad cyntaf y Cynulliad a hefyd etholiad diwethaf y Cynulliad, lle bûm yn gwneud ychydig o waith yn helpu ymgeiswyr yng Ngogledd a Gogledd Ddwyrain Cymru. Os caf rannu fy ngofid gyda chi, y gofid ymhlith nifer ohonom yw ymrwymiad pobl Cymru i’r broses ddemocrataidd yn gyffredinol, ond yn sicr o safbwynt proses ddemocrataidd y Cynulliad ei hun a’r teimladau a brofais ymhlith pobl am y Cynulliad ei hun. Roedd yna broblemau hefyd, lle roeddent yn gweld problemau, pan oedd ganddynt deimladau, ac yn sicr wrth ymgyrchu yng Ngogledd Ddwyrain Cymru, Clwyd ac ardal Wrecsam difaterwch mewn gwirionedd oedd yn ennill yr etholiad yno, fel y gwyddoch, hwyrach. Ond rwy’n credu ei bod yn arwyddocaol, felly, dwyf fi ddim yn credu bod eich ymchwiliad yn rhy gynnar; yn wir, mae’n amserol iawn, oherwydd mae gofid yn ein plith i gyd am yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd o safbwynt tymor cyntaf y Cynulliad a faint o gynnydd fydd yn y dyfodol. Mae’n ofid mawr bod diflastod ymhlith y cyhoedd ynglyn â’r Cynulliad, y ffigurau pleidleisio, mae’r niferoedd a bleidleisiodd mewn gwirionedd yn dangos hynny i raddau helaeth, ac fel y soniais, yn arbennig yng Ngogledd Ddwyrain Cymru, lle bûm yn ymgyrchu.

Hefyd yn fy ngwaith byddaf yn mynd o gwmpas yr ysgolion uwchradd yn fy etholaeth i siarad â disgyblion chweched dosbarth fel rhan o’u hastudiaethau dinasyddiaeth, ac yn gyffredinol byddwn yn trafod gwleidyddiaeth, ond yn benodol o ran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Ac mae arnaf ofn fy mod yn dod ar draws y difaterwch a’r dryswch ymhlith y bobl ifanc yn ogystal. Mae hyn yn ofid mawr, rwy’n credu, oherwydd os ydym yn chwilio am bobl ifanc gydag ymrwymiad ac sy’n wirioneddol wedi ymrwymo i unrhyw beth, mae’n anodd iawn cael hynny, oherwydd pobl un pwnc ydyn nhw yn aml iawn ac mae llai o ddiddordeb mewn cynrychiolaeth neu wleidyddiaeth cynrychioli. Wn i ddim ai mater yw hyn o "fel yna mae pethau wedi arfer bod", a rhaid i ni gadw mewn cof yr agwedd hanesyddol ar hyn. Ond rwy’n gallu cofio pan oeddwn yn 25 oed, amser maith yn ôl, fod yna ysfa fawr am fynd i San Steffan bryd hynny. Ond fy syniad, yn gam neu’n gymwys, yw fod y diddordeb wedi pylu, ac yn sicr dyna’r profiad rwyf wedi ei gael. Rwy’n credu hefyd bod dryswch ym meddwl pobl a bod hyn lawer yn fwy perthnasol i’ch cylch gwaith chi.

Mae dryswch ym meddyliau pobl am y patrwm a fabwysiadwyd gan y Cynulliad yn y lle cyntaf, gan fod pobl yn gyfarwydd â chael dwy ochr o ddadl yn y lle cyntaf fel yma, y math o arddull wrthdaro fel sydd gennym yma. Ond dydw i ddim yn credu bod pobl yn deall y syniad o wleidyddiaeth gynhwysol, a dydw i ddim yn gwybod pa fath o werthu a wnaed gan y Cynulliad am y ffordd newydd hon o weithio.

Yn sicr, caf yr argraff gan fy etholwyr fod pobl yn deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng y Cynulliad a San Steffan, ond nad ydynt yn deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Wrth siarad â phobl am Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, maent yn edrych arna i’n synn. Dydyn nhw ddim yn deall mewn gwirionedd. Maen nhw’n meddwl mai’r Cynulliad yw’r Cynulliad yw’r Cynulliad, sy’n gyfrifol am bopeth, yn dda neu’n ddrwg.

Rwy’n credu hefyd, wrth siarad â’m hetholwyr fy hun, fod pobl yn ychydig yn ddryslyd neu’n niwlog am ddyletswyddau a phwerau’r Cynulliad, o’i gymharu â San Steffan. Dydy’r rhaniad hwnnw ddim yn glir iddyn nhw o gwbl. Dydy’r rhaniad rhwng y Cynulliad yn gyffredinol a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ddim yn ddigon clir. Dyna’r argraff a gaf. Rwy’n gweld croestoriad o bobl yn fy nghyfarfodydd lleol, rwy’n meddwl, ac wrth siarad â phosibl ar y stryd, a’r argraff a gaf yw dryswch.

Yn sicr, mae yna ddryswch neu anwybodaeth am y broses a sicrhau newid, neu am bolisi neu ddeddfwriaeth. Arwydd o hynny yw bod pobl yn dod i fy nghyfarfodydd i ac i gyfarfodydd Dafydd Wigley ac Aled Jones, yr aelodau sy’n cyfateb i mi, ac yn dod i siarad ag aelod yn y cyfarfod, nid yn dod i siarad â mi fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad, fel AS. Ond fel mae’n digwydd, rydym yn rhannu swyddfeydd a staff, ac o safbwynt ymarferol dydy hynny ddim yn cael unrhyw effaith o gwbl ar y gwasanaeth a rown i’r etholwr unigol. Ond mae’n ddiddorol bod rhai pobl yn dod ataf fi am faterion yn ymwneud â’r Cynulliad, yn hytrach na mynd at Dafydd neu Aled. Wrth gwrs, dylwn ddweud bod pobl yn dod ataf fi ynglyn â materion y Cyngor Sir, pob math o gwmnïau masnachol, caniatâd cynllunio, pob math o bethau, ond y cyd-destun hwn o leiaf dydy’r gwahaniaeth rhwng y Cynulliad a San Steffan ddim yn glir o gwbl yn eu meddyliau.

Hywel Williams, Plaid Cymru. Previous to that I worked in the social work field and health field, and those are my specialist interests in this place on behalf of myself and my party.

May I first of all thank you for this opportunity to come and put forward some comments or observations as an individual member in this place. This is probably going to be a briefer session than your previous one, but I hope it will be a useful one.

May I say, by the way, how pleasant it is to speak Welsh in this place as usually we are not allowed to, and it is one of the fundamental differences between here and Cardiff. Although my grasp of English is relatively good I prefer to speak in Welsh and I hope I will be more articulate and that that is something the authorities in this place will pay attention to before very long.

I thought I would start with some very general comments of my brief experience as an MP and then some general comments arising from my experience of the first Assembly election and also the last Assembly election where I carried out some work in assisting candidates in the north and north east of Wales, and if I could just share with you my concern, it is a concern that many of us share regarding the commitment of the people of Wales to the democratic process generally, but definitely from the point of view of the democratic process of the Assembly and the feelings that I perceived amongst people regarding the Assembly itself and the problems, where they did see problems, when they did have feelings, and certainly from campaigning in the North East of Wales, Clwyd and Wrexham area, indifference was actually winning the election there, as you probably know. But I think it is quite significant, so I do not think that your investigation is premature; in fact it is a timely one, because there is concern amongst us all regarding what has occurred from the point of view of the first Assembly term and what the progress will be in future. It is a great concern that there is disillusionment among the public regarding the Assembly, the turnout figures, the presented turnout actually demonstrates that to a great extent and, as I mentioned, particularly in the North East of Wales, where I campaigned.

Also as part of my work I go round the secondary schools in my constituency to talk to the fifth formers as part of their citizenship studies, and generally we have a discussion about politics, but specifically regarding the Assembly in Wales of course, and I am afraid I do discover the indifference and confusion amongst the younger people as well. This is a substantial concern I think because if we are seeking people with commitment and that are actually committed to anything, it is very difficult to find that, because they are single issue people very often and there is less interest in representation or representational politics. I do not know whether this is "that it has always been thus", we have to keep a historic perspective on this, but I can just think of myself at the age of 25, a very long time ago, but I do not think there was a massive urge to go to Westminster then. But my perception, rightly or wrongly, is that the interest has declined and certainly that is the experience that I have had. I also think that there is confusion in the public's mind and I think that this is much more relevant to your remit.

There is confusion amongst the public regarding the model that the Assembly adopted in the first place, because people are familiar with having the two sides of the debate as in here, the sort of confrontational style as we have here, but I do not think the people understand the idea of inclusive politics, and I do not know what kind of sales job or marketing job the Assembly carried out on this new way of working.

I certainly get the impression from my electors that people understand the difference between the Assembly and Westminster, but they do not understand the difference between the Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government. When I talk to people about the WAG they look at me in a daze. They do not actually understand. They just think the Assembly is the Assembly is the Assembly is the Assembly, which is responsible for everything, good or bad.

I also think in talking to my own electors people are rather confused or vague about the duties and powers of the Assembly, as compared to Westminster. That division is not clear to them at all. The division between the Assembly generally and the Assembly Government is not clear either. That is the impression I get. I see a cross-section of people in my surgeries, I believe, when I talk to people on the street very often, and the impression that I am getting is one of confusion.

Certainly there is confusion or ignorance regarding the process of securing change, or on policy or legislation. An indication of that is that people are coming over to my surgery and to Dafydd Wigley's surgery, and Aled Jones, my opposite numbers, and they come to talk to a member in the surgery, they do not come to talk to me as an Assembly Member, just an MP. But as it happens we happen to share the offices and the staff, and from the point of view of the practical side of it that does not have any impact at all on the service that we give to the individual elector, but it is interesting that people come and approach me on Assembly issues rather than going to Dafydd or Aled. Of course I should say people approach me regarding issues of the County Council, all kinds of commercial companies, planning consent, all kinds of things, but in this context at least the difference between the Assembly and Westminster is not at all clear in their minds.

Tom Jones (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Ar y pwynt hwnnw, os yw’n fater sy’n ymwneud â phwerau’r Cynulliad yn hytrach na phwerau San Steffan, ydych chi’n dueddol o gyfeirio’r achos at Aled, neu a fyddwch chi’n dweud "Dyma yw fy swydd, ac mae’r person wedi dod ataf fel etholwr, felly, fe wnaf fy ngorau drosto", neu a fyddwch chi’n rhannu’r gwaith o gwbl?

On that point, if it is an issue that is to do with the Assembly powers rather than Westminster powers, do you tend to pass that case on to Aled, or do you say, "This is my job and they approached me as an elector, so I will do my best for them", or do you share the work at all?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Fel mae’n digwydd, yn ein swyddfa rydyn ni’r ddau aelod yn rhannu’r gwaith wrth iddo ddod i mewn; dyma mae pobl am i ni ei wneud. O ganlyniad, bydd pobl yn dod â phroblem ac yn cael cymorth i’r graddau y gallwn ei roi. Dyna wnawn rhyngom ni ac rwy’n credu mai dyna’r ffordd i’w wneud. Efallai y byddwn wedi cael tystiolaeth am y ffordd mae etholaethau’n gweithio, lle mae gennych wahanol bleidiau’n cynrychioli’r Cynulliad a San Steffan. Wn i ddim sut fyddai hynny’n gweithio, ond yn sicr yn ein hachos ni yr un blaid yw.

Wn i ddim a yw’r ffaith ei fod yn wasanaeth cyfleus yn gyfrifol. Fel mae’n digwydd, mae hynny wedi cyfrannu, ond rwy’n gobeithio ein bod yn cyfrannu mewn gwirionedd at yr holl syniad o wneud y Cynulliad yn fwy cyfleus. Rydyn ni’n dal i obeithio.

Rwy’n credu, os bydd pobl yn edrych ar y bobl hynny sy’n dod i’n cyfarfodydd, mai’r nodweddion fel grwp o bobl yw ein bod yn bobl ddeallus iawn yn aml iawn, yn bobl sy’n fodlon gwneud rhywbeth ynglyn â phroblem. Hwyrach nad ydyn nhw’n cynrychioli’r boblogaeth gyfan, oherwydd maen nhw’n bobl sy’n dod i daro’r bwrdd a dweud wrthym ni beth yw eu hawliau. Byddech yn gobeithio y byddai gan bobl felly ddealltwriaeth o’r gwahaniaeth rhwng Caerdydd a Llundain. Ond rhaid i mi gyfaddef nad fel hynny y byddaf fi’n ei chael yn gyffredinol. Gyda llaw, o’m safbwynt i fy hun, fy etholaeth fy hun, un o’r pethau cyntaf a wneuthum ar ôl cael fy ethol oedd cyhoeddi taflen yn amlinellu pwerau a dyletswyddau’r Cynulliad a San Steffan a hynny mewn iaith hawdd ei deall. Argraffwyd miloedd lawer o’r taflenni hyn yn esbonio’r rhaniad. Ond unwaith eto, rhaid i chi fod yn ymwybodol na fydd y daflen honno’n mynd ymhell iawn, ond rydyn ni wedi ceisio gwneud hynny.

I grynhoi fy sylwadau cyffredinol, yr argraff arall a gefais – wn i ddim a yw pobl eraill wedi mynegi hyn wrthych – ond yr argraff a gaf yw eu bod yn credu bod gan y Cynulliad lawer mwy o bwerau nag sydd ganddo. Mae pobl yn credu, "O, mae’r Cynulliad wedi gwneud hyn, neu mae’r Cynulliad wedi newid y llall" ac mai’r Cynulliad yw’r Llywodraeth ac y gall y Llywodraeth newid pethau. Efallai mai rhan o’r siom am y Cynulliad yw nad oes gan bobl yr un math o hyder a ffydd mewn llywodraeth lawn ag oedd ganddynt gynt. Ond yn sicr maent yn siomedig am na all y Cynulliad wneud pethau.

Gobeithio nad yw hyn wedi bod yn rhy negyddol, oherwydd mae’n hawdd iawn edrych ar y problemau a’r anawsterau. O safbwynt fy etholaeth fy hun, mae yna fwyafrif o bobl sy’n cefnogi fy mhlaid, sef plaid datganoli a mwy. Wrth gwrs, rhaid i mi ddweud bod pleidlais gref yno o blaid y Cynulliad.

Dyna yw fy sylwadau i.

As it happens, in our office we both members share the same office and we always do the work as it comes in; that is what people want. As a result they come in with a problem and they get the assistance to the extent we can give it, and that is what we do between us really and I think that is the way of doing it. Perhaps we might have received evidence about the way in which constituencies where you have different parties representing the Assembly and Westminster, I do not know how it would work, but certainly in our case it is the same party.

I do not know whether the fact that it is an accessible service as it happens that has contributed to that, but I do hope that we are actually contributing to the whole idea of making the Assembly more accessible. It is a hope, just a hope.

I do think that if people look at those people who come along to our surgeries, what are the characteristics as a group of people, they are people who are very intelligent very often, people who are willing to take action on a problem and perhaps they are not really a representation of the population as a whole, because they are people who actually come to bang the table really and tell us what their rights are. One would hope such people perhaps would have the understanding of the difference between Cardiff and London, but I must admit that that is not how I find it generally. By the way, from my own point of view, my own constituency, one of the first things I did after being elected was publish a leaflet outlining the powers and duties of the Assembly and Westminster and in an easily user friendly language, and we actually printed many thousands of these leaflets, explaining the division. But, once again, you have to be conscious that that leaflet possibly will not go that far, but we have attempted to do that.

Just to conclude my general comments, the other impression that I received, I do not know whether the people who have confirmed this to you, but the impression that I get is that they think that the Assembly has very much more powers than it has. People think, "Oh, the Assembly has done this, or the Assembly has changed that" and that the Assembly is the Government and that the Government can change things. Perhaps part of the disappointment with the Assembly is that parts of the general disappointment is because people do not have the same kind of confidence and faith in full Government as they used to, but certainly they are disappointed that the Assembly cannot do things.

I hope that has not been too negative, because it is very easy to look at the problems and the difficulties, and from the point of view of my own constituency there is a majority of people who are supportive of my party, that is the party of devolution and more. Of course, I must say that there was a heavy vote there in favour of the Assembly.

Those are my comments.

Eira Davies (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Rydych wedi nodi’r difaterwch a’r siom yn y Cynulliad, ond mae nifer y bobl sydd wedi pleidleisio yn isel hefyd yn yr Alban, ac efallai fod hyn yn rhan o’r broses gyffredinol yn Ewrop gyfan. Felly, allwch chi ddim priodoli hyn yn llwyr i’r Cynulliad, y ffaith fod pobl yn ddifater.

You have noted the indifference and the disappointment with the Assembly, but the number of people who have voted has been low also in Scotland and perhaps it is part of the general process in the whole of Europe. So you cannot actually put it down to the Assembly solely, the fact that people are indifferent?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Na, fe fyddwn yn cytuno’n llwyr â chi. Mae pleidleisio’n gyffredinol wedi gostwng. Roedd ychydig yn uwch yng Nghymru 4 blynedd yn ôl, gan iddo fynd i lawr y tro diwethaf o waelod y 70au i waelod y 60au. Yn yr etholiad diwethaf roedd yn is eto, ac felly mae hwnnw’n safbwynt dilys. Ond rydyn ni wedi sefydlu trefn ddemocrataidd newydd i Gymru a oedd yn golygu dod â llywodraeth yn nes at y bobl, a’r bwriad yw i hynny fod yn fwy perthnasol. Dyna oedd yr amlinelliad, ac o ran hynny ac o ran optimistiaeth pobl, mae wedi eu siomi. Ond efallai nad bai’r Cynulliad na Llywodraeth lawn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yw hynny; efallai ei fod yn beth mwy cyffredinol ac y dylem obeithio y byddai sefydlu trefn felly wedi creu diddordeb yn y sefydliad yn hytrach nag i’r gwrthwyneb. Efallai y bydd yn well y tro nesaf.

No, I would agree with you completely. Voting generally has declined. It was slightly higher in Wales 4 years ago as the last time it went down from the low 70s to low 60s. In the last election it was lower again and so that is a valid point, but we have established a new democratic order for Wales which is meant to bring Government closer to the people and which is meant to be more relevant. That was the outline, and in terms of that hope and in terms of people's optimism it has been disappointing, but perhaps it is not the fault of the Assembly or the full Welsh Assembly Government; it is just perhaps more of a general thing that one would hope with the establishment of such an order that it would have raised interest in the institution rather than the other way. Perhaps it will be better next time.

Tom Jones (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Rydyn ni wedi treulio llawer iawn o amser heddiw yn trafod Cysylltiadau Cyhoeddus a’r ACau ychwanegol. Roeddech yn dweud eich bod yn gweithio’n dda gydag ACau sydd o’r un blaid wleidyddol â chi. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae yna aelodau rhanbarthol eraill o bleidiau eraill. Oes gennych chi broblemau gyda’r rheiny, anhawster gyda nhw?

We have spent a great deal of time today discussing PR and the additional AMs. You said that you work well with AMs which is the same political party as you, but of course there are other regional members from other parties, do you have problems with them, difficulty with them?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

I fod yn onest, maen nhw’n anweladwy, ond efallai fod hynny’n broblem gydag aelodau rhanbarthol yn gyffredinol. Pa blaid bynnag sydd mewn grym mewn gwirionedd, rwyf wedi delio â rhai o aelodau rhestr fy mhlaid fy hun. Dydw i ddim yn awgrymu eu bod yn israddol nac yn aelodau eilradd nac yn wahanol mewn unrhyw ffordd. Ond dydyn nhw ddim mor amlwg. Wn i ddim sut mae hyn yn gweithio o safbwynt Aelodau Senedd Ewrop, oherwydd rhaid iddyn nhw gynnwys Cymru o’u safbwynt hwy, ac rwy’n dyfalu pa mor weladwy ydyn nhw gan fod un yn byw tua 5 milltir o’r lle hwn, fel mae’n digwydd.

No, to be honest they are invisible, but perhaps that is a problem with the regional members generally. Whichever party is actually in power I have dealt with some of my own list members from my own party. I am not suggesting that they are second rate or second class members or in any way or in any way different, but they do not have the same level of visibility. I do not know how this works from the point of view of the European or the MEPs, because they have to cover the whole of Wales from their point of view and I wonder how much, how visible they are, because I have one living about 5 miles away from here as it so happens.

Dr Laura McAllister

As to development of the Assembly into potentially a Parliament, and thinking of the party list, what kind of interim stages would you feel would be acceptable as a natural progression? We have talked to a lot of academics in particular who raise the question of having something along the lines of the Sewell Convention, where Wales would have legislative capacity over specific areas with scrutiny in Westminster for England and Wales. From your own point of view could you see that working and would it be an acceptable compromise, an acceptable halfway house, or would you argue very strongly for full primary legislative competence to be evolved in one go?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

O’m safbwynt i, byddwn o blaid pwerau deddfwriaethol llawn ar unwaith. Gallaf weld fod yna bosibiliadau, ond fy newis i fyddai cael pwerau deddfwriaethol ac rwy’n gofidio am gymhlethdod a dryswch arafu’r broses, arafwch y broses a diffyg eglurder yn llygaid y cyhoedd. Cefais restr o gwestiynau gennych ymlaen llaw ac roedd hwnnw’n un o’r rheiny. Bûm yn meddwl ychydig am yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn ddiweddar. Rwy’n gofidio pe bae rhai o’r mesurau hyn wedi eu gwneud yn y Cynulliad ac wedi eu gwneud ar ran Cymru a Lloegr yma yn Llundain y byddai rhagor o ddryswch oherwydd y gofid sylfaenol am atebolrwydd democrataidd. Dyna pam rwyf o blaid dewis cliriach o bwerau deddfwriaethol llawn.

O’m rhan i, rwy’n credu bod y ddadl yn ddigon clir. Dydyn ni ddim yn newid telerau sofraniaeth, fel petae. Yr hyn rydyn ni’n ei wneud mewn gwirionedd yw amrywio’r hyn y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud ar hyn o bryd.

From my own point of view, I would be in favour of full legislative powers straight away. I can see that there are possibilities, but my choice will be for legislative powers and I have very many concerns about the complexity and confusion of slowing the process, slowness of process and lack of clarity in the eyes of the public. I had a list of questions from you beforehand and that was one of them, and I did think a little bit about what has been happening recently. I am concerned that if some of these measures or bills were passed in the Assembly and passed on behalf of England and Wales here in London there would be further complexity and confusion because of the basic problem of shared democratic accountability. That is why I favour the clearer option of full legislative powers.

For myself I think that the debate is quite a clear one. We are not changing the terms of sovereignty as it were. What we are doing is actually varying what the Assembly can do at present.

Dr Laura McAllister

What about a decision to also recommend tax varying powers, and we are mostly aware of your stance on that, but would that require a referendum? Is that something that moves the debate into a different sphere?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Fyddwn i ddim yn teimlo hynny’n bersonol, rhaid i mi ddweud, ac rwy’n credu ei bod yn hawdd iawn gwneud gormod o’r pwerau deddfwriaethol a’r pwerau o drethu, oherwydd pan edrychwch ar yr ochr ddemocrataidd i fuddsoddiadau, neu o leiaf o’r Cyngor Cymuned i’r Cyngor Sir, ac yn y blaen, mae’r rheiny’n bwerau mae’r cyhoedd yn eu deall. Ac i mi o leiaf mae gennym ar hyn o bryd wedi’r cyfan gorff sydd heb y pwerau i wneud y pethau hyn. Ond mae’n gorff sy’n cael swm mawr o arian, ond heb y gallu sylfaenol i wneud penderfyniadau sydd, rwy’n credu, yn hanfodol. Rwy’n meddwl mai mater o raddau yw hyn, rhaid i mi gyfaddef.

I would not feel that myself personally, I must say and I feel that it is very easy to make too much of the legislative powers and of the tax raising powers, because when one looks at the democratic, or at least from the Community Council to the County Council, to investments, and so on and so forth, they are powers that the public understands, and to me at least, after all, at present we have a body that has not the powers to do these things, but it is a body that receives a very substantial sum of money, but they are not responsible for raising that money directly. It has quite a bit of power, but not the fundamental ability to take decisions which I think is essential. I think it is a matter of degree myself, I must admit.

Lord Richard

Could I change the subject a bit and look at it from the point of view of you as an MP here in Westminster. When something comes up from Cardiff that Cardiff want legislated it gets into the legislative programme either as a Wales only bill or possibly piggy-backing on top of something else. How do you see your position in relation to that? Do you see your function as an MP in order to help the Assembly get its way, or do you see your function as exercising so to speak independent political judgement? Or as part of the party apparatus as it is up here? How does it work?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Rwy’n ystyried fy mod yn gyfrifol am gynrychioli’r bobol sydd wedi fy ethol yma ar yr un telerau a’r amodau â phob AS arall o Gymru a Lloegr, a dyna rwyf yn ei wneud. Wrth gwrs, mae dyn yn edrych ar yr hyn sydd ar y Cynulliad ei eisiau, ac enghraifft o hynny yw’r mesur iechyd, wrth gwrs. Dyna’r un mwyaf amlwg i mi, ac fel mae’n digwydd dyna’r mesur y cytunais ag ef, ac rwy’n credu bod llawer o gytundeb cyffredinol amdano. Felly, nid yw’n waith y gallwch ei ragweld yn arbennig, ond o brofiad y mesur hwnnw, roedd dyheadau’r Cynulliad a’n dyheadau ni yma’n dueddol o fod yn unfryd.

O safbwynt y mesur hwnnw, hoffwn ddweud iddo gael ei drafod yn helaeth – yn helaeth iawn, iawn – sy’n rhyfedd mewn ffordd, oherwydd rydym yn gweithio yma ar batrwm o wrthdaro a dadlau a gweithio ar bethau drwy ddadl. Ond cafwyd cytundeb eang ar y mesur hwnnw, ac aeth drwy bob pwyllgor a thrwy’r Cynulliad, yn wir, a mynd drwy broses Ty’r cyffredin a Thy’r Arglwyddi. Aeth hefyd gerbron yr Uwchbwyllgor Cymreig a’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, yn ôl a deallaf, felly mae’n codi cwestiwn sylfaenol iawn ynglyn â rhywbeth lle nad oes anghytundeb. Ydyn ni'n dweud bod rhaid i ni fynd drwy'r camau hyn i gyd? Ydyn ni’n dweud fod pobl yng Nghaerdydd yn methu gwneud penderfyniadau cymharol ddi-nod? Doedd dim dadl amdanynt Ydyn ni’n dweud eu bod yn methu gwneud hyn eu hunain? A’r cwestiwn sylfaenol hefyd yw beth ddigwyddodd i’r llwybr cyflym? Doedd hwn ddim yn llwybr cyflym iawn, a bod yn onest. Roedd yn rhaid iddo fynd drwy nifer o bwyllgorau.

I see myself as having a responsibility to act as a representative of the people that have actually elected me here on the same terms and conditions as every other MP from England and Wales and that is what I do. Obviously one looks at what the Assembly wants, and an example of that is the health bill of course. That is the most obvious one for me, and as it happens that was the bill that I agreed with, and I think there was general agreement on it, and so it is not particularly predictive work really, but from experience of that bill, the aspirations of the Assembly, and our aspirations here tended to be one and the same.

If I may say from the point of view of that bill, it was discussed extensively -- very, very, very extensively -- which is strange in a way, because we work on a model of confrontation and argument and working things out by debate here, but there was great widespread and broad agreement on that bill, and it came through all the committee stages and through the Assembly, did it not, and it came through the House of Commons and the House of Lords process and it also went before the Welsh Grand Committee and also the Welsh Select Committee, as I understand it, so it does raise a very fundamental question with something where there is no disagreement. Are we saying that we have to go through all these steps? Are we saying that the people in Cardiff are unable to take comparatively innocuous decisions? There was no argument about them. Are we saying that they are unable to do it themselves? And the fundamental question also is what happened to the fast track? Because this was not a very fast track to be honest. It had to go through a number of committee stages.

Lord Richard

You do not see your function in effect to assist the Assembly to get the legislation; you see your function as to exercise independent views as a Member of Parliament elected by your constituency?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Mae hyn ychydig yn gymhleth. Rwy’n ystyried mai fy mhrif swyddogaeth yw cynrychioli fy mhobl ar yr un sail ag y mae pawb arall yn y lle hwn yn cynrychioli eu hetholwyr o safbwynt polisi fy mhlaid, ond gan edrych hefyd ar yr hyn sydd ar y Cynulliad ei eisiau.

It is a bit complicated. I see that my main function is to represent my people on the same basis as everybody else in this place is representing their electorate with a view to my party's policy but also looking also at what the Assembly wants.

Lord Richard.

And if it is in conflict?

Hywel Williams

It has not to date. I mean, we are not automatons or robots, but a person with a view and accountable to our constituents and my own party and --

Lord Richard.

What I am interested in really is the slight sort of difference that there is between your two attitudes: one is that you are an independent MP at Westminster and the other is that the Assembly should have more powers. If the Assembly should have more powers and decide they want to do X, Y or Z you should not second-guess the matter.

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Dyma’r sefyllfa sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd. Pebae gan y Cynulliad y pwerau sydd gennym ni yma, ni fyddai gennym y pwer yma, na fyddai. Fe fyddai yng Nghaerdydd. Ond yn y sefyllfa gymhleth sy’n bodoli heddiw, dyna’r unig ateb synhwyrol, rwy’n credu.

The situation that we have at present -- this is the situation that we have at present: if the Assembly had the powers that we have here, we would not have the power here, would we. It would be in Cardiff, but in the complex situation that exists today that is the only sensible response I think.

Peter Price

Can I ask rather more generally about Parliamentary scrutiny of primary legislation that has come from Cardiff, originated there, either the whole bill or the Welsh clauses coming here. What would you say are the weaknesses of the scrutiny here at the moment and also what are the aspects of it which you would say are the strengths?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Rwy’n pryderu am agweddau ar ddeddfwriaeth sy’n cynnwys Cymru ac sydd wedi eu claddu i raddau ac yn anodd iawn eu hadnabod. Mae’r rhain wedi eu cynnwys yng nghorff mesur. Nawr gall hynny fod yn anodd i fi fel aelod newydd, ond rydw i bob amser yn pryderu fy mod wedi colli rhywbeth. Nid yw bob amser yn glir sut mae deddfwriaeth sy’n cynnwys y darpariaethau ar gyfer Cymru yn dod yn rhan o gorff mesur a deddf. Gwn fod awgrymiadau wedi eu gwneud i gael unrhyw ddarpariaethau ar gyfer Cymru yn hollol ar wahân, ac wedyn gallwn gael trafodaethau ymhlith ASau Cymru. Rwy’n gallu gweld mantais yn y sefyllfa ar y sail honno ar hyn o bryd, ond rwy’n credu bod perygl i bethau gael eu colli neu fynd ar goll. Roedd yna gwestiwn arall, ac rwy’n methu cofio beth ydoedd.

I am concerned about aspects of legislation which involve Wales which have been buried to some extent and are very difficult to identify. These are included within the body of a bill. Now that might be difficult for me as a new member but I am always concerned I have missed something. It is not always clear as to how legislation involving the provisions for Wales fit into the whole of a bill and a measure. I know there have been suggestions to have any provisions for Wales completed separately and we can then hold the discussions among Welsh MPs, and I would see benefit in that in the situation on that basis at the moment, but I do think there is a danger of things being missed or getting lost, and there was another question, and I cannot remember what it was.

Peter Price

Basically what are the strengths and the weaknesses, both sides of the coin here? You have described one weakness is difficulty in identifying what clauses in a bill have Welsh application. That is more often going to be where the bill has actually originated at this end. Where it has originated in Cardiff it is likely to end up as a Wales only bill or a very separate set of clauses in the bill. The identification problem is not likely to be there, so are there other weaknesses that you would identify about the whole system of Parliamentary scrutiny here but also there must be some strengths, and what are those strengths?

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Rydych newydd enwi un eich hun. Pan gawn fesurau sy’n deillio o Gymru ac sy’n cynnwys Cymru, yna mae hynny’n ddigon clir, onid yw? A dylem weld mewn gwirionedd fod y mesur hwn yn cynnwys Cymru, ac i ryw raddau gallwn ddelio â hynny. Ond mae yna sefyllfa arall, ac i ryw raddau mae’n gwestiwn o rannu pwerau, ond mae’n cynnwys y Cynulliad yn unig, lle mae yna agweddau Cymreig. Enghraifft o hyn fyddai ysbyty sefydliadol, yn enwedig yn ardal y Gororau; hwyrach lle bydd cleifion a staff yn croesi’r ffin i gael triniaeth. Mae yna fesurau ar gyfer Lloegr, ond mae rhai agweddau a fydd yn cynnwys Cymru, felly, mae hyn yn fater o ofid.

Y sefyllfa arall rwyf am ei nodi yw sefyllfa’r Mesur Hela. Roeddwn ar y pwyllgor a fu’n astudio hwn a chynigiais ddiwygiadau i gael Comisiwn Hela i Gymru a chofrestr ar gyfer Cymru, ac yn y blaen. Felly, dyna’r darpariaethau a gynhwyswyd fwy neu lai yn y mesur, ond dylent gael eu sefydlu ar sail Cymru’n unig a rhai Lloegr ar wahân. Felly doedd dim cymalau Cymreig penodol yno, ar wahân i’r diwygiadau a gynigiais. Felly, mae hynny’n wendid, neu’n rhywbeth y dylem yn sicr fod yn ymwybodol ohono.

You have just noted one yourself. When we do have measures that emanate from Wales and involve Wales then that is quite clear, is it not? And we should actually see that this bill involves Wales, and to some extent we can deal with that, but there is another situation, and to some extent it is a question of separation of powers, but this involves the Assembly only, where there are Welsh aspects. An example of this would be the foundation hospital. There will be an effect on Wales if these hospitals are established, particularly in the border areas; maybe where patients and staff actually cross the border for treatment. These are bills for England, but there are some aspects that will involve Wales, so there is some concern there.

The other situation I identify is the situation on the Hunting Bill where I was actually on the committee studying this and I did propose amendments to have a Hunting Commission for Wales and to have a register for Wales, and so on. So they were the provisions more or less included in the bill, but they should be established on a Wales only basis with England lying separately, so there were no specific Welsh clauses there, apart from the amendments that I proposed, so that is a weakness, or something that one must be aware of certainly.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much indeed for giving the time this afternoon to come and talk to us. If I may say so, it has been helpful to have a Member of Parliament who is not a Labour Member of Parliament giving us some indication of how it affects Westminster.

Hywel Williams (In Welsh - then interpreted)

Yn fyr iawn, rwyf wedi cael cip ar Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cymreig ac mae argymhelliad ynddo i gael cofrestr o ddeddfwriaeth Gymreig, fel y cafodd ei nodi, ac yn sicr byddai hynny’n fuddiol.

Hoffwn ychwanegu hanesyn yn fyr. Pan oeddwn yn fy ngalwedigaeth flaenorol, roeddwn yn ceisio deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng WOC ac LAC, sef Cylchlythyron y Swyddfa Gymreig a Chylchlythyron Awdurdod Lleol, a oedd yn berthnasol i Gymru ac yn berthnasol i Loegr, ac yn berthnasol i Gymru a Lloegr. Felly, ffoniais y Swyddfa Gymreig a gofyn a allent ddweud wrthyf a oedd hwn yn WOC neu’n LAc, ac yn y blaen. Doeddwn i fawr callach, a bod yn onest, ond rwy’n credu bod hynny’n ddefnyddiol.

Very briefly, I did have a look at the Welsh Committee Report and there is a recommendation there on having a register of Welsh legislation as it was noted, and I certainly think that would be beneficial.

If I could just give you a short anecdote when I was in my previous post I was trying to differentiate between WOCs and LACs, which are Welsh Office Circulars and Local Authority Circulars, which were relevant to Wales and which were relevant to England and which were relevant to England and Wales, so I phoned your Welsh office and asked them if they could tell me if this was a WOC or a LAC and if they could tell me if this is both a WOC and LAC, et cetera, and I was none the wiser to be honest, but I do think that that would be very useful.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much.