COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Wales Tourist Board

held at

The Civic Centre, Merthyr County Borough Council

on

THURSDAY 26^th JUNE 2003

In Attendance

Nigel Adams, Wales Tourist Board

Lord Richard, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Huw Thomas, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Dr Laura McAllister, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Lord Richard, Richard Commission

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much for coming. I wonder if you'd do two things for us. First of all, identify yourself for the purposes of the transcript and then secondly if you'd be kind enough to open up the topic perhaps for 5 or 10 minutes, then we'll pursue whatever issues we think might be helpful to pursue, if that's all right for you.

Nigel Adams

I'm Nigel Adams, Head of Policy at Wales Tourist Board where I've worked for over 14 years. Prior to that I worked in local government in England and Wales. The first point I want to make is that tourism is a very important industry to Wales, total visitor spend by UK and overseas staying visitors generating just under £2 billion in 2001 with a further 776 million contributed by day visitors. We estimate that tourism supports something in the region of 60,000 jobs directly with a further 30,000 supported indirectly. A healthy competitive tourism industry is vital to the Welsh economy.

The question perhaps you'd like answering, I suppose, in one sense, is: has the Assembly made a difference to the tourism sector? I feel undoubtedly it has. As indicated in the paper I submitted, the Assembly has enabled more resources to be put into supporting the sector by both the successive Ministers for Economic Development and the Economic Development Committee. WTB's grant in aid has increased from 11.46 million in 1998/1999, the last financial year before the establishment of the Assembly, to 19.5 million in 2002/2003.

Prior to the Assembly's establishment, WTB had very limited contact with Ministers, probably only on the basis of an annual meeting a year with the Chairman and Chief Executive. Now our Chairman and Chief Executive have regular meetings with the Minister, probably on a monthly basis. We also have regular meetings with the Cross-Party Liaison Group on Tourism. The existence of the Assembly has, I think, enabled Welsh solutions to Welsh problems to be devised. The quotes in the paper relate to Adfywio. I think the example also illustrates the greater integration in working together between Assembly sponsored public bodies and that there is a increasingly joined-up government – not an easy task to achieve – but, I think we are at long last moving in the right direction. The creation by the Assembly of a number of partnerships such as the Rural Partnership, the Cymru’n Creu (cultural partnership), Wales Coastal Maritime Partnership, I think has helped build a more integrated approach, a more working together approach, although I think it's still early days for these partnerships to really start achieving major things.

Lord Richard

Can I ask you – sorry to interrupt – to expand a bit on the Foot and Mouth Disease because if anything looks a long way from the Welsh Tourist Board it's the Foot and Mouth outbreak. You say here it led to the Rural Recovery Plan and Adfywio scheme. Can you expand on that?

Nigel Adams

With Foot and Mouth, it illustrated just how important tourism was for the rural economy. When the footpaths were closed down, visitors stopped coming because walking was a major part of the visitor experience and it severely affected counties such as Powys and Monmouthshire. The coastal areas around Wales were far less affected, but certainly the countryside holiday type of activity dropped dramatically. I think at the time we were able to put in a recovery plan to try and overcome these effects and I think tourism has made a reasonable recovery from that. It's still got some way to go, but we're on the way up again.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Was any help given to the tourist industry as a result? Farmers were given a lot of help, quite naturally. I remember the Prime Minister was said to have a holiday in Cumberland, or something.

Nigel Adams

Certainly in Wales we operated a number of schemes. We operated a grant scheme to help tourism operators who lost marketing expenditure for that year, that season, to help replace some of that lost expenditure. We also operated a grant scheme under the Rural Recovery Plan to assist in maintenance, up-grading properties, recognising the loss of profits meant that operators weren't able to carry out their normal basic maintenance and minor improvements that you'd normally expect them to do with profits from the season. So, there was a grant scheme to assist with that. There was also additional funds made available for the marketing of Wales as a rural destination as well. There was help, but it was certainly not of a scale of help that went to the farming community.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Did the National Assembly make those funds available from their funds?

Nigel Adams

Yes, via the National Assembly.

Tom Jones

In terms of day-to-day dealing of the issue, were you confused by dealing with DEFRA or did you have all the information you wanted from the National Assembly as to the opening and closure of the paths and what to give advice to would be visitors?

Nigel Adams

The Assembly did set up – from memory; I wasn't directly involved – a working group from different agencies to work together for better co-ordination. That would have fed information from DEFRA. For instance, we were putting information out via our TICs and on our web-site about what footpaths were open and that was updated on a very regular basis. We also operated the call line for people to phone up to find out about what was open in a particular area.

Tom Jones

So, the Board was not confused about where responsibility lay for giving permission to do this or that? It got all the answers from the Assembly.

Nigel Adams

In terms of our work, yes.

Lord Richard

Sorry to have interrupted you.

Nigel Adams

That's all right. I'd nearly come to the end anyway. I think another positive benefit I've seen happen over the last four years is that I think Wales has taken a far more international outlook, building relationships with other regional governments in Europe and further afield. I think that will help us learn from international experience and best practice and it will enable us to be perhaps more outward-looking in our thinking, perhaps ensuring that we're, at least at times, ahead of the game. I think it probably will be some time, however, before these positive benefits I've outlined this afternoon and in the paper submitted are actually felt by the man and woman in the street, but the tourism sector is starting to feel a positive impact; whether they attribute that positive impact to the Assembly or not, I don't know.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much. Can I ask you about the paragraph in your second page: statutory registration scheme for Wales? Can you spell that out a bit?

Nigel Adams

Yes. It's been a longstanding desire by the Tourist Board, or policy of the Tourist Board, to promote the idea of statutory registration to ensure there is a minimum standard for that, so that tourist operators comply with the basic health and safety legislation.

Lord Richard

A registration scheme for tour operators?

Nigel Adams

For accommodation operators. So, if you're a B&B, guesthouse, or hotel you have to register.

Lord Richard

I see.

Nigel Adams

We commissioned a report to look into the pros and cons of different systems and looked at what is being done elsewhere in Europe and also in Northern Ireland because they have a statutory registration scheme and the report came out with recommendations which we went out to consultation on to the industry and, overall, the balance of opinion was in favour of statutory registration, so we submitted a recommendation to the Assembly, which was accepted by the Assembly, but, because the Assembly doesn't have powers for primary legislation, the legal changes would have to be made by the UK Government – by Westminster.

Huw Thomas

Could you outline what those legal changes were because I find it strange, in a sense, that you started the task and must have talked with the Welsh Assembly Government, or at least with some officials beforehand, to know that at the end of the day you can't actually implement it.

Nigel Adams

There was a degree of uncertainty as to whether it would need primary legislation at the time because under the 1969 Development of Tourism Act some people were of the opinion that the powers already existed to introduce statutory legislation, but, when it was tested out with the Civil Service, the Department of Culture Media and Sport, it was decided that, no, we'd have to go for new legislation.

Huw Thomas

So, you could introduce a voluntary scheme but not a statutory scheme; is that it?

Nigel Adams

In effect we've got a voluntary scheme, people sign up to a grading scheme voluntarily, although that is slightly different from statutory registration, in a sense, but it's not a minimum scheme; it's a quality assessment.

Ted Rowlands

The English department is not buying this on principle or it just hasn't got parliamentary time to do it? Does Whitehall think it's a good idea or see it as bureaucracy or affecting business, whatever it is? Is there an issue of principle between yourselves and the National Assembly and Whitehall, or just a matter of parliamentary time?

Nigel Adams

It's primarily parliamentary time. There is also perhaps more of a nervousness about it within England than there is within Wales.

Ted Rowlands

In other words, they have some doubts about the policy itself.

Nigel Adams

Yes, I think their not 100% convinced, but they're nearly convinced. Slight reservation.

Dr Laura McAllister

What about the structure that exists that you talk about under "Relations between the Assembly and Whitehall" (the last but one page)? You talk about the role of VisitBritain in relation to the Wales Tourist Board and English situation. In terms of statutory registration, is what we have at the moment in Wales quite distinctive in terms of the awarding of stars and crowns, whatever?

Nigel Adams

The grading scheme is broadly compatible with the Scottish scheme, but there are differences with the English scheme. There was an attempt to get harmonisation of grading schemes across the UK back, I think, in the mid-nineties and it was proved impossible because the motoring organisations who operate grading schemes place greater emphasis perhaps on facilities and size than both Scotland and Wales wanted to do; we wanted to put great emphasis on quality. So, it proved impossible to have a harmonious scheme. However, there are further talks now taking place to try and look at that again with a view to getting harmonisation.

Dr Laura McAllister

Is that one of the issues you're trying to bring to our attention when you talk about VisitBritain having a marketing role which includes Wales, obviously, but then your role as Tourist Board is a combination of marketing policy development, strategy for tourism, and so on, or am I misreading that?

Nigel Adams

The issue with VisitBritain is that basically VisitBritain has a remit to market the whole of Britain overseas. So, they market Wales alongside Scotland alongside England. Whilst they have targets for getting overseas visitors out of London, they do not have specific targets for Wales or Scotland, and this has been the issue of debate for a considerable length of time. We never satisfactorily resolved it. I think there is a will to try and resolve it. It is one of those untidy areas, I think, in tourism.

Paul Valerio

We only get 4% of overseas tourists which is – I don't say pathetic because that implies criticism, which I'm not making, but it's a very small percentage of what comes to the United Kingdom. If the Assembly had primary legislation powers, how cost-effective do you think it would be for Wales to actually market Wales internationally?

Nigel Adams

We did work alongside – VisitBritain, we now are – to market Wales, particularly in what we call our primary target markets: North America, Germany, France, Netherlands. However, for us to operate the type of operation that VisitBritain run, in duplicating what they were doing, would not be particularly cost-effective use of public money. I think we need to get agreement on specific targets for VisitBritain to get more overseas visitors into Wales and actually help build on what they're doing, .

Lord Richard

A very strange sort of relationship.

Nigel Adams

It is.

Lord Richard

Marketing you abroad and marketing England in Wales.

Nigel Adams

This is a problem that has actually arisen out of a recent restructuring. Up until last year there were two organisations: English Tourism Council, who were responsible for marketing England within the UK, and a separate organisation British Tourist Authority responsible for marketing Britain overseas.

Paul Valerio

Which would that figure be, that 4%? What should it reasonably be?

Nigel Adams

I think the figure, ideally, we'd be talking 6 or 7% over time, but you remember you start from a low base, so it's quite tough going. I mean, London is the big magnet and most first time visitors will go to London. To get them out of London is quite a task. I think we can do it and we will be able to eventually do it, particularly as Cardiff's profile gets greater and we actually have a magnet to get them into Wales. The other problem we have is, of course, airports. Again, Cardiff has bmibaby now and we've got more international routes coming into Cardiff, but it's still quite limited. We have no direct links with the United States. In terms of North Wales, it's probably better served because it's by Manchester and Liverpool airports.

Dr Laura McAllister

I was going to ask on the issue of transport because visitors who come to the UK may well visit various places, not necessarily one. Going back to our particular task of looking at the powers of the Assembly, transport is something that comes up regularly as being one area where there are severe jagged edges in terms of scope and control. I wonder what your feelings are on that and what kind of liaison you've had with the Minister who deals with the transport agenda because it strikes me as being something vital for yourselves in the tourist industry, not only into Wales but from north to south and train links generally to move visitors around.

Nigel Adams

We were involved when Sue Essex was Minister for the Environment and set up a working party to look at the future of Cardiff Wales Airport, and we were represented on that working party, so we've had involvement in terms of aviation. We've also met with senior civil servants from the Assembly and civil servants from London DTI who are producing the future of aviation consultation paper and have had discussions with them. So, on aviation, there has been a fair degree of involvement. On rail I think it's more that we've made submissions to the Strategic Rail Authority about our concerns about the need to improve rail links between, say, Manchester airports and North Wales, and also improving rail services within Wales as well. There has been a meeting with their staff as well, but perhaps we've not had quite the same degree of involvement as we have on aviation.

Ted Rowlands

Wales Tourist Board is a quango, and one of the regional purposes of devolution was to produce a far greater degree of proper scrutiny of quangos, if not their abolition. You said you as the organisation had regular contacts with Ministers and so forth. How about the formal scrutiny of you as an organisation by the appropriate National Assembly committee – perhaps there is more than one committee?

Nigel Adams

The Economic Development Committee performs this role..

Ted Rowlands

You get scrutinised by them in a way that someone would understand the scrutiny system?

Nigel Adams

The first thing is that the Minister each year provides us with a remit letter. Years ago, remit letters were quite short, but now we're getting longer and longer ones and more detail. That provides a basis for scrutiny by the Minister and civil servants. As a result, we've recently had a quinquennial review of Wales Tourist Board by civil servants who are reporting to the Economic Development Committee. That's a process which all the Assembly's sponsored public bodies are going through.

Ted Rowlands

Remit letters are grown long. Quinquennial review pre-dates...

Nigel Adams

Pre-dates and happened under the old Welsh Office.

Ted Rowlands

I can remember it was before devolution, so the remit letters are long. Are they public and are they the subject of public discussion with the Assembly committee, or is it a matter between yourselves and the Minister?

Nigel Adams

I'd have to say I wouldn't be able to answer that. I'm not aware of it being a public document. It may be, but it's available to members of the Economic Development Committee. ( It is a public document)

Lord Richard

How often do you get scrutinised by the Committee?

Nigel Adams

I think it would be no more than once a year.

Lord Richard

Regular contact with the Minister?

Nigel Adams

On individual items we may make presentations to the Economic Development Committee and other committees – such as the Rural Affairs Committee.

Ted Rowlands

You feel more scrutinised yourself, do you?

Nigel Adams

Yes, I think we are probably more scrutinised, yes, because politicians are much closer to us; they can scrutinise us better and they take more interest. The fact that they do take more interest is a very good thing.

Lord Richard

Can I ask about this figure in this paper? One of the largest industries contributing over 6 million to the economy every day. Is that right?

Nigel Adams

That was a figure we quoted in our Annual Report. The figures I mentioned to you were it's just under 2 billion a year in terms of staying visitors, with a further 776 million in terms of day visitors. Those are based on annual...

Lord Richard

It is about 6.

Nigel Adams

My maths isn't good enough to work it out.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Can I ask about comparisons with Scotland because presumably they have a Scottish Tourist Board and they're trying to up their number of visitors. Are their increases in the figures comparable with Wales and does the fact that the Scottish Parliament has bigger powers than the National Assembly for Wales helped them?

Nigel Adams

I think VisitScotland has gone through a bit of a difficult patch in the last couple of years They went through a major restructuring exercise partly as a result of the trade being upset with their past performance. In terms of resources, yes, they probably have got greater resources than Wales Tourist Board,

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

I mean per person per head.

Nigel Adams

I couldn't give you a definitive answer on that, but I could supply it in the next week if you felt it would be helpful.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

What about the powers of the Parliament?

Nigel Adams

I'm not aware of the difference in the powers of the Scottish Parliament making a direct impact on the way that VisitScotland operates.

Ted Rowlands

Has the Scottish Parliament legislated on home affairs at all since its inception?

Nigel Adams

I'm not aware of it having done so.

Lord Richard

You don't want legislation, do you? There is no legislative gap as far as you're concerned. The structures all right.

Nigel Adams

I think the only area we were concerned about was on statutory registration. That's the only significant disadvantage we've come across so far.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much. I think you've made your point very clearly and we're very grateful to you for the paper and for coming to see us.