THURSDAY, 10^TH JULY 2003

EVIDENCE OF:   SANDY BLAIR, DIRECTOR;   RUSSELL GOODWAY, SPOKESPERSON, FINANCE & WALES PROGRAMME FOR IMPROVEMENT;   COLIN MANN, WLGA PLAID CYMRU LEADER; STEVE THOMAS, HEAD, POLICY UNIT;  AND RACHEL JOWITT, POLICY DIVISION, WELSH LOCAL GOVERNMENT ASSOCIATION

Present

Lord Richard

Thank you all very much for coming. The way we normally handle this is to ask you to open up the subject for us and then we can pursue the things we might want to pursue. The other thing is, could you identify yourselves for the record?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I am Russell Goodway, the Leader of Cardiff, and I am the WLGA spokesperson for Finance and Wales Programme for Improvement. Colin Mann is a member of Caerphilly County Borough Council, and is the Plaid Cymru leader on the WLGA. Sandy Blair is our Director. Rachel Jowitt is in the Policy Division of the Association, and Steve Thomas is the Head of the Association’s Policy Unit.

Can I open by thanking you very much for the invitation to give evidence to your Commission. The evidence that we will provide has been constructed by a cross-party working group, agreed by the Association coordinating committee, which is made up of the leaders of the 22 local authorities. Unfortunately, Cllr Dai Lloyd Evans, who is the leader of the Independent group of the Association, sends his apologies, but the submission that we put forward has that group’s full endorsement. I would like to acknowledge the presence of Colin Mann, who I said was the Plaid Cymru group leader in the Association. I have to say that many of the sentiments expressed in the Association’s submission are those of the majority of the Association, as opposed to a unanimous view. I have no doubt that as we go through this morning’s session, Colin will want to put his own distinctive views on a number of the issues that will be raised.

However, I think it is fair to say that we do share a consensus on the key elements of the report, which I hope we will be able to highlight later. The Association does welcome the opportunity, and opportunities like this, to debate the future of Government of our country, because it does present an opportunity for us to stress the vital role that local government plays in the governance of Wales. Local government’s contribution, in our view, has often been ignored in some of the constitutional fantasies of the academic evidence presented to the commission thus far. Local government is responsible for the most profound range of contributions to the provision of great services in Welsh life. Since its inception, we have sought to work in partnership with the Assembly, to deliver improvements in public services. Local Government in Wales accounts for £4 billion of public expenditure and employs in excess of 150,000 people. More importantly, we are the predominant face of democracy in local communities, and one good example is the community planning process. This signals a real attempt to bring the kind of coherence to policy making at the local level that has been absent from central Government for too many years. Our evidence today is based on the fundamental premise that if devolution is to go further than the current settlement, then this must be with the will and support of the Welsh people and the Welsh electorate.

Two days after the Electoral Commission published a report showing that only 16% of voters aged under 25 voted in May’s elections for the Welsh Assembly, are we really saying that the main issue facing Welsh politics is a debate on primary legislative powers for an institution which, in the timescales of history, is barely an infant. Local government represents people from Cardiff to Conway, to Anglesey to Blaenau Gwent, and right across Wales, my councillor colleagues and I are in the frontline of a vibrant public and political debate. Less people may be voting in elections, but they are very vocal when it comes to expressing their views on the things that impact on their daily lives. They are most concerned about the quality of public services, and the ability of their local council to deliver the goods in terms of value for money. It is the liveability agenda, the quality of roads, social services, education, and the local environment, that matters most to them. They are simply not interested in the number of bills passed at Westminster, or whether the Assembly sees the return of Henry VIII powers. They want the Assembly to add value, provide a clear vision for the future of Wales, and to set out how it will work with its partners to achieve this within the mandate it has been given. It may, to the annoyance of many Welsh establishment figures, be a solution based on constrained discretion with a clear separation of powers between the Assembly and the House of Commons, but let us not forget the result of the 1997 referendum, and the cautious message that was sent out by our nation. It is because of this that the Association’s submission concentrates on these key themes. One, the need to clarify the existing Assembly powers, where this could lead to better government. Two, the Association does not support the Assembly having primary legislative powers, but if this is to be recommended, then it should be affirmed by public mandate, through a referendum or election. We would apply the same conditions to any proposals that the Assembly could be given direct revenue raising powers. Three, a call upon the Assembly to complete the unfinished business, in terms of the abolition of unelected quangos in Wales. Four, a full-scale examination of the electoral system that underpins the Assembly, and complete reform of the methodology used to elect regional Assembly members. The Association believes there should be no increase in the size of the Assembly, but a thorough examination of the constitutional architecture of Welsh politics, leading to a constitutional settlement that clearly sets out the roles of respected politicians, and their spheres of influence.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much. What is the advantage to you of passing Welsh local government legislation at Westminster?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I think there have been advantages to having local government issues dealt with actually within the Assembly. The relationship that we were able to build up with the Minister between 1999 and 2003 was advantageous to us. However, whether or not the extent to which we have been able to depart from the English and Welsh agenda would have been greater if the Assembly had more powers. I doubt that the margin for manoeuvre is probably as great as it would be even if there were greater powers at the Assembly, because I do not think it has the capacity within a country-

Lord Richard

Can you help us a bit further on what advantages you found on local government issues having moved over to Cardiff rather than Westminster.

Cllr Russell Goodway

One that comes to mind is the Welsh improvement agenda. We had serious doubts about the best-value legislation and arrangements as they were introduced in England. I think that there was a very real consensus in Wales that what emerged as a result of the legislation was not what the politicians had intended when they wrote the manifesto commitments back in 1997. Forgive me for saying so, particularly with my officials around me, but very often excellent ideas that politicians have, once they get hijacked by civil servants and academics, emerge as something quite different from what we really wanted. You must have had experience of that. I think that what we were able to do was reconnect with Edwina Hart and have a shared understanding of what we really intended to do through best-value. It was about the improvement of public services and giving local government and those who provide services the freedom that they needed in order to reach those improvements.

Lord Richard

The impression I get from you is that first of all you found it easier to agree with Cardiff than Westminster on these issues and, secondly, that the civil service in Cardiff was more under control.

Cllr Russell Goodway

Am I allowed to say that? If Edwina was on your shoulder I think you would feel more under control. What we must not forget, though, is that the political climate has changed. In the 11 years that I have been a local authority leader, until 1997 we had a situation where the Secretary of State for Wales was not even an elected member of a Welsh constituency. Therefore, the relationship was tense, to say the least. In the early years of the Labour Government after 1997 the issues were dominated by the need to get the devolution arrangements into place. We have not had a great deal of opportunity, really, to utilise the existing Assembly powers to explore the possibilities that are available to us, and I think that that is what we are suggesting, as an Association, we should be given time to do; to see what the current settlement could provide in terms of freedoms for local authorities and for other providers of public services.

Cllr Colin Mann

Could I come in for a moment. Whereas I would agree with the majority of the Association submission, it will not come as a surprise to you that my group would not agree on the question of revenue raising powers, or on extra powers, or legislative powers. We would also critically look at the number of MPs. The answer that I would give to some of the questions would be influenced by those particular principles. We see the devolution settlement that we have at the moment as a mess. I have been in meetings where Assembly Government Ministers have said ‘We will not do this, we will not do that’ and they did not vote. I will give you one little example. I was in a sustainability meeting recently, where it was pointed out that better building regulations in Wales would aid sustainability in things like house-building. The Assembly, it would appear, does not have the ability to actually bring those powers in. The settlement here, compared with Scotland, is entirely different and what we are looking for is the flexibility that they have in Scotland.

Lord Richard

Well, you are looking for a bit more clarity.

Cllr Colin Mann

We are looking at more than clarity.

Sandy Blair

Could I just follow on from Cllr Goodwood’s point and not deny the fact that there are some differences in the Association, as Cllr Mann has said. I think the majority view of the Association, particularly the one in question about whether there would be benefit in having legislation here instead of in Westminster, and whether that has been damaging for Wales, I think I could say, with possibly one exception, we have found the way in which legislation has been prepared since devolution has allowed quite sufficient opportunity under secondary legislation for there to be a development of a Welsh approach, both in terms of policy and in practice. I think even in the one I have slight reservations about, there has been a space allowed for the Assembly and I think you know about the arrangements for the late discharges, where the line would be taken in England, the Act covers England and Wales. The Assembly has an opportunity to pause for a while, and I am not aware under those areas where legislation has been passed that we have had any restrictions on local government. Indeed, local government has been able to secure a different balance of understanding with devolved government in order to deliver what we think is an improved service to our citizens, and that has been the opportunity in England. I think that leads on to the second point of view, where Cllr Goodway was discussing the relationship with officials. I think the scale and closeness of the opportunity in Wales allows at both political and official level for far greater awareness of how to arrive at something that works. Nearly all of that seems to me to be under its powers that exist either already or through secondary legislation. So much of the Westminster legislation is in primary legislation. Whilst there are some tweaky bits, I do not think any of us have felt really seriously constrained by the nature of the legislation.

Tom Jones

To what extent has the ability to use secondary legislation to deliver your needs hampered by the time table effect? In other words, the agenda satisfies Westminster, whenever they want to bring in a bill at a certain time and cycle, which may or may not fit in with your timetable or the Assembly’s timetable.

Sandy Blair

That is a proper concern about working out the way in which the two legislatures work, in order that you do not have serious implications for Wales. I think it is a big issue, the capacity of local government actually to respond and react. I am sure everyone could identify some example of where we have been delayed by that process, but they could also identify examples where we have been delayed for other reasons…

Lord Richard

Can I just pursue this point. You are really telling us that at the moment the powers of the Assembly are sufficient, that you are quite happy to negotiate through Westminster and also with the Assembly on the secondary legislation side. That in effect is quite an efficient and worthwhile system. How do you think it would work if there was a change of Government?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I do not think that we have exploited the Assembly’s existing settlement to the full.

Lord Richard

Do you see dangers in the fact that there might be a change of Government at Westminster?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I think there could be a tri-party standoff if we are not careful in those situations. You would have a Government of one party in Westminster, an administration at the National Assembly, and different political administrations within the Welsh context of local government.

Lord Richard

That is a recipe for impotence and stagnation.

Cllr Russell Goodway

I tend to share your view.

Lord Richard

Do you think that the adjustment of the relationship, and the power relationships between Cardiff and Westminster-

Cllr Russell Goodway

I think you have to be very careful, because we are talking about these technicalities, but we are forgetting about the most important agreement of all, which is whether there is public support for them. In 1997 we may have won a vote, we did not win an argument. It is fair to say there are differences within party groups, and that within the association the membership probably reflects the geographical political climate of the country. From people who are in favour of abolition through to people who are in favour of independence. Those views exists. The important thing is that until we win hearts and minds of people, any attempt to impose greater powers on the Assembly is going to be treated with contempt. We have to accept that in 1997 in the Welsh context compared to the Scottish context, devolution was seen to be imposed upon the people of Wales. In Scotland they had the constitutional convention that was running for three whole years. The majority of Welsh people did not actually vote for it, did they? It was just that the majority who voted for it turned out-

Cllr Colin Mann

Did the majority of Welsh people vote for your council?

Cllr Russell Goodway

The majority of Welsh people will not vote for my council. But the issue is: can you honestly say, and I think you can not, even in Caerphilly, that the majority of people in your community are not yet persuaded that what has been created is doing the job that it was created to do. I do not believe that they are persuaded either, that in order to do the job that it was created to do it needs additional powers. I think we are about to lose even further the public argument, we will become even more detached than we are at the moment, and people are becoming disengaged from the political process, because what they see is a group of individuals – the one thing that has grown quickest in Wales since 1997 is the growth of lobbyists and similar organisations. There is now the growth of a political elite, who have a vested interested in securing greater powers, and what they are not doing is connecting that with the ambitions of the people in Wales for the institutions that have been created. Devolution is not about an institution. It is about more than that, it is about winning hearts and minds, and we have not done that, Colin, and your party has not done it either.

Lord Richard

To win heart and minds you have to get clear what it is that you are presenting.

Cllr Russell Goodway

It would help.

Lord Richard

It is quite basic, actually. If you have a campaign you have to know what you are campaigning for. We are not part of a political elite that you are abusing around this table.

Cllr Colin Mann

People see the elite as Cardiff Bay …

Lord Richard

If you are going to win hearts and minds you need clarity of what it is you are doing. It has got to make sense. Suppose you were setting out to look at the way in which you devolve power to Cardiff, would you actually do it the way in which it has been done, and does the way in which it has been done actually make sense?

Sandy Blair

The Association’s view is that subject to some minor adjustments and clarification around the edges, yes, we think it is appropriate. I ought to stress that were the leader of the coalition group sitting next to us here, he would be very much closer to the views expressed by Cllr Goodway than the views expressed by Cllr Mann. You just need to know the balance in the Association.

Cllr Colin Mann

You must acknowledge that the coalition group is everyone who is not Plaid Cymru or Labour, including members of my party and of Russell’s party, and all shades of opinion. The leader of that group does not necessarily express the opinions of the whole group.

Sandy Blair

The other one to just come back to, very quickly, on your original question about what the implications would be of a different administration in the two spheres. I think the fact that we rely so heavily on the secondary legislative powers of the Assembly would mean that whilst some of the personality issues might not be as comfortable, the implications of that for local government would be less than might be supposed.

The current constitutional powers seem to provide that any power given to a Secretary of State in the UK, where it is relevant within the constitutional settlement, is given to the Assembly. That has been sufficient for our requirements to date. In terms of personality, my personal experience of a long time working in two-tier local government is that it is not always easier to work with the same party, and sometimes it is easier to work with the other party.

Vivienne Sugar

It is the same vein I want to explore, and whether the current settlement does allow local government to maximise the way you would like to work in Wales. If I take you back to before 1997, when there were arguments, not about necessarily the structure of the constitution, but more about the policies that the Government of the UK was pursuing at the time, it was actually very difficult at that stage for local government to make any difference on the ground in Wales. If somebody said that the current secondary legislative powers of the Assembly are sufficient to ensure that policies of a government of a different complexion could not be imposed on Wales, and I am thinking in terms of health, housing, transport and all the things which would matter to local governments, because our reading at the moment of the evidence is that whilst you might be able to ameliorate the interpretation of the implementation of some things, if there were matters of fundamental principle, like CCT or foundation hospitals or CPA and the improvement ratings that exist for local government in England, it would actually be very difficult for local government to do it in a different way-

Cllr Russell Goodway

There is a great debate in England as to whether they could do those things in England if it was not for the fact that Scottish Labour MPs voted for foundation hospitals. We are back to the West Lothian question. These are fundamentals that need to be addressed.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

What is your view on the number of Welsh MPs?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I think the Association’s view is that there are too many politicians in Wales.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

You say that but my direct question is about the number of Welsh MPs. What is your view on that?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I do not think the Association has formed a view on the numbers of MPs. We acknowledge that there are too many politicians within the Welsh dimension. We have the view that there is no case for the number of Assembly members to be increased. I do not think we have formed a view on how many Welsh members of the Westminster Parliament-

Sandy Blair

I think that is right, Russell, and I think the issue is around trying to ensure that each sphere of Government concentrates on its core purpose and its core reason for representation. I think that under the existing constitutional settlement with considerable power still vested in Westminster, we believe there is potentially an increasing importance for the role of MPs, which I do not think has yet been resolved, or established.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is there some justification for having more than your proportionate number of MPs?

Sandy Blair

I can not say.

Cllr Colin Mann

Can I say that in the context of having proper powers for the Assembly there is certainly a case for having less MPs in Westminster. The reality is that where I live we have five levels of elected representatives from MEPs to community councillors. Which is at the top, you can choose for yourself. Some people say community councillors are. The reality is that a lot of letters that I see coming into the county borough are from other levels of elected members writing in about council matters. We have the same problem raised by several different people on behalf of the same person, and we are running around in circles. My view is that if those people have got time to take up those kinds of issues, have they got enough to do in the job for the rest of the year.

Vivienne Sugar

But your paper suggests that by codification and by protocols, you could actually get over that.

Cllr Colin Mann

You could, but it is down to personality.

Cllr Russell Goodway

I believe that someone has got to be brave enough at some stage to do some sort of constitutional settlement. You can not do it on an ad hoc basis, as we seem to be doing it at the moment. Who is responsible for what and having crossovers everywhere. We do need to have that debate. How many people do we need to run, say, the Government of our country? You are right to say that there are five MEPs, 40 MPs, 60 AMs, 1500 county and county borough councillors, and goodness knows how many community councillors from 700 community councils. Below that, we have the un-elected tier, people who sit on quangos. There are more people still sitting on quangos in Wales than there are elected to the 22 local authorities. You are never very far, when you walk around this country of ours, from someone who serves on some sort of public body, either elected or unelected.

Lord Richard

Is that a great thing. What about public participation?

Cllr Russell Goodway

We are a country of less than three million people. There are cities bigger than the population of the whole of Wales. You can not sustain this level of government within a country as small as this. Even if you compare with Scotland, Carmarthenshire has a population of 170,000, with 74 councillors. Aberdeen has 230,000 people and a council of 43. What justification is there to have all these people?

Lord Richard

That is a very interesting local authority argument. Can I come back to the paper?

Dr Laura McAllister

Can I just say, before we get diverted, I would like a response to the question about the impact that local government can make within the current framework, particularly relating to secondary legislation.

Lord Richard

That is really what I was coming back to.

Cllr Colin Mann

I would have great fears about a Government of a different complexion, basically telling the Assembly what to do and the Assembly would have no powers to withstand that pressure.

Lord Richard

Can I come back to paragraphs 21 and 22, very interesting ones. In paragraph 21 you say ‘In a wider context since its creation the Assembly has not been given powers that would enable it to deregulate local government, because they involve powers to amend primary legislation.’ The next paragraph says that ‘The Assembly is responsible for the vast majority of local government functions…..As a matter of principle it should be responsible for deciding to what extent local authorities in Wales are to be deregulated: deregulation alters the nature of control that it exerts over local government and the relationships between the two spheres of Government.’ First of all, when we talk about deregulation, it looks as though you are in favour of deregulation but do not feel quite as passionate about further regulation. Secondly, how can you possible deregulate without giving the Assembly the primary powers to do it?

Cllr Russell Goodway

Is that not what it says?

Sandy Blair

I think we worked on the basis, and I will probably look to Steve to finalise this comment, but I think that much of the regulation of local government is undertaken under secondary powers, and we are comfortable with that. If I can combine your question with Viv’s earlier question directed to myself, it seems to me that our argument is based currently on the extent of the current devolution settlement, and those aspects of legislation that cover local government as covered by the Assembly. With that, we have been very comfortable. This question is are we comfortable with the fact that those aspects of non-devolved activity can still be exercised by central government, and then we only rely on the regulatory powers of the assembly. My argument is, at the moment that the constitutional settlement appears to provide a precedent, but whether it is in where legislation is devolved to give a Secretary of State regulatory powers, then those powers can be exercised differently in Wales. At the moment the Assembly only has the power to influence that regulation where it is part of the devolution settlement. The issue is how many other aspects should be devolved within our sphere and, clearly, there are some that are in debate at the moment. You referred to them as jagged edges. There are some that will always be retained, it seems to me, within the UK level of responsibility, because of the broader issues. The issue there about the constitutional settlement is the extent to which the Secretary of State of one flavour or another would be prepared to grant the Assembly powers which, I think, would be within their constitutional rights, even though the primary legislation gave the right to the Secretary of State at UK level. That seems to me to be the issue of working between Westminster, Whitehall and the Assembly. My personal opinion is, and I do not think that the Association is convinced, that you need to give primary legislative powers to the Assembly for everything, in order to be able to handle the issue of regulation or non-regulation of local government in Wales.

Lord Richard

Take that one step further. If you do not give them total primary legislative powers, are there areas in which you wish to see them having them?

Cllr Russell Goodway

In think that what we are arguing in paragraph 21 is for the extension of secondary legislative powers, to exploit further those areas where, under secondary legislation, somebody could be given the powers to make amendments. That is how I view it, as the amendment of primary legislation within secondary legislative powers.

Steve Thomas

I think Cllr Goodway is right. What we have in paragraphs 21-25 is evidence from local authorities, where there is a clear suggestion from local authorities that as a consequence of legislation made after the Government of Wales Act, powers which would have previously been invested in the Secretary of State, are now invested in bodies such as the ODPM. We think that is a perverse consequence of devolution. Things like an ability to abolish plans in Wales, and we suffer from a considerable amount of planning requirement in local government, are now vested in the ODPM. We would like to see those ragged edges moved out.

Tom Jones

That is a good point because in Scotland in some cases it has continued either having council support, and in other cases there has been a re-centralisation of powers for some UK bodies under the legislation.

Cllr Colin Mann

I think the farce over councillors’ pensions in Wales illustrates that. We were ahead some couple of years ago of bringing in this particular measure. It then got lost or ignored in the offices of John Prescott, and we now find ourselves six months behind the provisions in England, whereas we were-

Lord Richard

So what you are really arguing for, as I understand it, is that there should be a much greater devolution of executive function which should be with Cardiff rather than the Government. Can you categorise those?

Sandy Blair

I am not sure I can do it right now, but we could certainly provide you with some written evidence.

Lord Richard

It would be helpful to know where it was that you thought should go to Cardiff-

Sandy Blair

A couple of illustrations of the things that are happening in Wales at the moment where, without devolving the entire responsibility, the opportunity for secondary influence would be important, for instance the Licensing Bill currently going through Parliament, the relationships between how licensing operates with other devolved aspects of government, changes in the criminal justice system, not necessarily running in parallel with Assembly support for community regeneration issues. It is whether the two sets of power rub up against each other and are compatible. I am saying at the moment that local government would seek to ensure that there is a greater scope for compatibility without necessarily saying that the entire responsibility for primary legislation should be devolved. That seems to be almost an unnecessary burden to duplicate legislation in terms of enabling powers, but I think it is important that how those enabled powers are conducted should give the Assembly powers to work with its partners, including local government in Wales, to deliver something that is more appropriate, that is made in Wales, even if this power originates in Westminster.

Dr Laura McAllister

We are not privy to the discussions that led to the construction of this paper, and I sense that there is some degree of disagreement, but can I put a similar question to that which has already been raised in a different way. Is not one of the reasons for local government being wary of the Assembly acquiring primary powers a fear in a sense that the Assembly would become more powerful and influential in local government, particularly in terms of determining the public service delivery agenda? There has been a lot of literature on the Scottish situation of late, and concerns raised by local government in Scotland suggest it as a form of ratchet effect, and whether you agree with it or not, I know that some Scottish authorities are claiming that the Scottish Parliament is too powerful at their expense. Is not your support for the current constitutional settlement based on the fact that it actually provides some kind of check and balance on the Assembly in that it provides a constraint on the Assembly’s powers in relation to what you want to do in local government?

Call Russell Goodway

I do not think it is the driving issue, and I suppose you could argue that one of the reasons why there are arguments in favour of greater powers for the Assembly is because the Assembly does not like the check and balance that exists with the Westminster Parliament. They want to be free of that. Of course, local authorities would like to be free of government, to deliver for its people. One of the things that we argue very strongly is that local government authorities have their own mandate from their own electorate. We are not agents of the National Assembly or of central Government and we should never be seen as agents. I was at a meeting of the Audit Committee of the Assembly this week and one of the Assembly Members was trying to compare our rights with those of Assembly-sponsored public bodies. They are not the slightest bit the same. We have our own mandate and we answer to our own electorate. We must be as free as we can to do that. I believe if devolution is going to have any meaning at all, there will come a time when the people of Wales will need to have confidence in its Assembly to deliver on the subjects you are talking about. It needs to have confidence that in terms of public service delivery this is an institution which is capable of delivering the goods. At the moment we have not persuaded the people of Wales that that is the case. There is no doubt at all that whatever public misgivings there are about local authorities, there is more confidence in local authorities at the moment delivering public services than there is in the National Assembly. We should not be surprised at that, because as I said in my introductory remarks, the National Assembly is very much in its infancy and it has to win hearts and minds. Therefore, it has to exploit the powers that it has at the moment, but more important than that, it has to exploit its influence. One of the things that we in local government have had to learn in the last 18 years as our powers have been taken away from us by successive governments, is that as you lose power you have to exploit your influence. I have to say that when people talk about me as the leader of the capital city, and the powers that I have, I have to say that they are very limited. However, the influence I have is very extensive. What the Assembly, dare I say, is not doing at the moment, is using the immense amount of influence it has in terms of people who serve on local authorities and people in other sectors of public service. I honestly believe that this debate that we are having through your commission is premature in terms of arguing for greater powers, because the people are not there yet. We are in danger of becoming even more detached from the public that we serve by having these sorts of debates. I honestly believe in the next 20 years we will get to where you want to be.

Steve Thomas

Can I comment on Dr McAllister’s question? There were recently published two empirical studies by the Joseph Rowntree foundation. One was a study on Scottish local government and devolutionary impact, and one on Welsh local government and devolutionary impact. The clear message that came from those studies, and this is an empirical fact, was that the constrained discretion that exists in Wales was probably a slightly better environment for local government working, than what many Scottish councils perceived to be a feature which they described as crowing out the Scottish executive. In one sense, you could argue that in practical terms the existing constraints on the Assembly do benefit local government, hence the Assembly and local government have been very keen to work together in partnership, to push the public sector reform agenda for the betterment of the people of Wales, I suspect, if you ask many Scottish local government colleagues, they would look at the Welsh settlement and probably prefer it.

Dr Laura McAllister

Can you give us some examples from Scotland where that crowding out debate has featured in particular?

Sandy Blair

The most recent case is probably the decision by the Scottish Executive, which does have the legislative powers, to take unto itself responsibility for the youth justice system in its entirety. That is not only a reflection of the Scottish Executive’s situation, but the fact that Scotland has always operated to a separate legal situation.

Lord Richard

That is taking it away from local authorities.

Sandy Blair

That is taking it away, saying that we feel we should be able to do it better. In terms of crowding, Steve have you got some suggestions?

Steve Thomas

Scottish colleagues I spoke to, and I spoke to members of the Scottish Executive the other day, point to the fact that Scottish government has had great difficulty coming to grips with the distinction between the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament, the legislator and the Executive. From their point of view I think there are arguments around a range of policy arenas where they feel that local government is struggling in that environment. The general view, however, is that the Scottish Parliament, but it has a range of executive powers, is seen to be a more powerful body within the Scottish context, and the result of that and the research suggests is that the role of local government has diminished as a result. We could provide supplementary evidence on that from our Scottish colleagues.

Sandy Blair

I have to offer you a short pamphlet that was published last week by the four associations for England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, on learning lessons from devolution. This is the first stage of the project the four associations are operating on together, which initially identifies the differences, and the next stage should be to try and identify whether or not you can tell that there is a difference in outcome to the public, which I think is the argument we would press for.

Cllr Colin Mann

There was more effort working in those initially. Some of us in the WLGA met a delegation from Scotland three or for years ago and they were quite surprised at the time spent. Not all of us are very impressed with some of things it has done but at least we have a body where local government meets the Assembly and has discussions about things we say, but there was nothing like that in Scotland. The distinction between the Assembly Government and the Assembly, where the Assembly gets blamed for things that maybe the Assembly Government should get blamed for and vice versa, that does not really happen in Scotland.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

It is really about the electoral arrangements in local government both in Scotland and in Wales.

Ted Rowlands

Why do you think it is better to legislate in Westminster than in Cardiff? There have been a number of important bills and acts which have been absolutely central in terms of roles and responsibility and indeed of local government and central government relationships. I wondered if I could ask you where you have experienced that the Westminster system does or does not work. Have some bills made considerable differences eg. if it was a bill that required local bodies to do certain things in certain situations. An England and Wales bill, and no special clauses per se of the kind I have been very familiar with for over thirty years. A bill of that kind – did you find it satisfactory? Do you find that if the Assembly had had the power to do or not do this bill, it would have been any better or worse?

Sandy Blair

That was the exception I think I identified earlier on as being the one reservation I had of our experience today. I think we would have preferred not to have had certain of the clauses in that being operated in England and Wales. I think that the other bills of that nature, where they have had Wales-only clauses and England and Wales clauses, like the planning bill for instance, has actually been quite a satisfactory way of handling it, because it is about the relationship between Westminster and Cardiff. It has surprised local government that certain clauses in the Delayed Discharges Bill have remained England and Wales. We thought they were going to be England-only. It is quite clearly feasible for that to be done within the existing constitutional settlement. Whether an exception to the rule like that would justify giving total powers, and one issue is the extent to which there is a current capacity within the Assembly, not only at lay member level but at official level, to run the whole panoply of primary powers is a fairly valid one that we put in our paper.

Ted Rowlands

What about the Education Act of 2002?

Sandy Blair

That allowed quite a degree of exception. There were considerable arguments, and we did try to raise challenges to certain sections of that. On the whole, we felt that there was enough scope for the Assembly to continue to pursue its more somewhat different and more locally designed approach to education in Wales. The gap between the Welsh education approach and English education is very substantial. I was approached by the most senior chief executive in England only two weeks ago, who had heard the Welsh Minister on the radio, and asked me why they could not have that in England.

Steve Thomas

Can I quote the example of a bill, the most profound bill that impacted on local government in recent years, the Local Government Act 2000. It does come down to the question of capacity and capability. That was probably the most significant piece of legislation that impacted on local government in over 100 years. It abolished the committee system, introduced the executive and scrutiny models. Viv Sugar would know this. We were involved in working groups at the time with the Assembly, and we constantly found ourselves struggling within that environment to keep up with the English legislative process. The English legislative process was such that the expertise on these issues was actually within Whitehall. We struggled in particular with putting in place a new ethical framework for Welsh local government. We put in a revised framework eventually but it took a lot of time to put it in, and the implications of that are still rolling up today. You have to ask yourself in that environment when it comes to a huge Bill such as that, which fundamentally changed the constitutional settlement for local government, about the Assembly’s capacity to do that.

Ted Rowlands

The issues are of capacity more than principle are they?

Cllr Russell Goodway

It is about both. From our point of view, the capacity issue is fundamental, but also we are part of an England and Wales local government system. Yes, the Assembly controls local government policy, but we are part of a local government association for England and Wales. We see ourselves as part of that wider community, and the result of that is that we want to see common features emerging from the best of legislation which is coming onto the books.

Ted Rowlands

Do you think under the current arrangements you can get the best of all worlds or the worst of all worlds?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I think talking in terms of sheer opportunism, yes.

Ted Rowlands

Would you also say then that even if there were some primary legislative power in the Assembly that you would still see or expect a large amount of legislation playing in England and Wales’s legislation, even in devolved areas? This legislation that we are talking about now for example had a profound effect on the way that local government delivers services. In that case, are there any recommendations you would like to make to this commission about the way in which the process of legislation works. Does the WLGA get a piece of the action in the development of legislation in the areas that I was talking about, were you directly involved, do you go to Whitehall as much as before, or do you just now channel everything through the Assembly.

Sandy Blair

There are two routes. Because all local authorities in Wales are not only members of the WLGA, but also the Local Government Association of England and Wales, we have an arrangement whereby they tend to lead on primary legislative issues and pick up particular concerns for Wales in their work. That has been the case since both bodies were founded prior to devolution. We are reviewing the extent to which that operates efficiently, but at the moment we would not normally go to Whitehall. We would rely on the LGA, our partners in London, to deal with Whitehall, and we would have opportunities of discussion with officials in the Assembly to advise them of our views before they deal with Whitehall.

There are specific occasions where we can. I am not going to say it is a perfect arrangement, and I think we could go further. Where we are not at is any sharing of the drafting of legislation, as opposed to the development of the policies that then leads to legislation. The point that we made earlier on about the Delayed Discharges Bill, that was a surprise, because what we knew was that ministerially and in policy terms, it was not intended to adopt that in Wales. The fact that the legislation then created the power did come as a surprise, but it is not a perfect arrangement yet and the point that Cllr Goodway and Cllr Mann were making is that we are very much in early days at the moment, we are learning how to take this forward. It is about improving working arrangements, rather than saying that the answer is to have it all done here in Wales.

Vivienne Sugar

Could you explain how you brief and lobby Welsh MPs? If something that you do not like has escaped into the draft, do you try and put it right at the other end?

Sandy Blair

I think we are learning to have to do that. I am not sure that we are terribly efficient at it yet. We have one or two examples recently where we-

Lord Richard

Has it changed?

Steve Thomas

Can I stress the fact that we do not just brief MPs, we brief some of Lord Richard’s colleagues as well.

Lord Richard

It really has changed, has it? You used to lobby the MPs directly?

Cllr Russell Goodway

Yes, and spend a lot of time in London too, speaking to Ministers directly. There is a sense, undoubtedly, that since 1999 the Assembly is the only dame in town. That is what the Government sees as the central partnership. We have said on a number of occasions that we have missed a trick, and that we really ought to be connecting more and more with Westminster MPs. There is a danger in thinking that the Westminster Parliament is becoming the English Parliament. It is not.

Ted Rowlands

What I am trying to get at is we have got this convoluted system now of legislation in a variety of ways. Is it delivering? If you have not got the capacity is it delivering reasonably well, or on a scale of 0 to 10? Secondly, should one carry on trying to create a successful convoluted route or as some people have put to us, academic fantasies maybe, a straightforward transfer of legislative power to the Assembly?

Cllr Russell Goodway

There is a danger of assuming that anything that comes out of Wales that there is a consensus for- part of the problem you have with some of the legislation relating to Parliament is that Welsh MPs do not actually agree with the Assembly. You get Welsh MPs on TV arguing against what the Assembly is arguing for, believing that they should be following what is happening in England. There are some instances, as Helena mentioned, where John Owen Jones has been on TV saying ‘Hang on, I think that Wales should be forced to do what the UK Parliament is legislating’ and they ought not to be-

Lord Richard

Do you think this is healthy?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I hope we will never get to the point where everybody in Wales agrees on everything. It would be a very sad and boring place. I think you have a long way to go before the public understand these arrangements, and constant change is not going to help them. I think there is an overwhelming desire to remain part of the UK. People want to be part of the UK and they understand the role of the UK Parliament. If Wales wants to have different arrangements, they will be argued for, and they will put the case for them. Just saying ‘It should not be decided there, it should be decided in Cardiff’ is not going to convince the people of Wales. What they will need to understand is what is the power of the argument, and the case, for Wales being different to England and Wales, or to the UK generally, and arguing here seeing Welsh MPs saying ‘We are persuaded by the case and we are going to persuade the UK Parliament to give those powers to the National Assembly in order for that distinctive Welsh approach to be made’. At the moment it is just a figment of people’s imagination all the time, that we talk about this distinctive Welsh approach.

Cllr Colin Mann

How far we go with this process is up to the Welsh people and we all recognise that- some would mention the word ‘independence’ - I would say there could be a constitutional commission on that. I would be very interested to see what you are putting up. In the evidence that my authority has put in, we refer to that and would recognise that if a commission looked at altering the powers, we feel that would be acceptable. For example, I belong to a community council. That community council has far more revenue raising powers than the National Assembly. I think that is-

Cllr Russell Goodway

Far more direct revenue raising powers. The Assembly has revenue raising powers.

Cllr Colin Mann

What we are living with at the moment in fact, the settlement we have, we all know, is a compromise between the views that John Davies represented in the Labour Party, and the views that Charles Smith represented on the other extreme. That is what we are actually living with. The Labour Party in Scotland had a different point of view, and in my view it has a better settlement than we have. That is the reality.

Cllr Russell Goodway

But that is the reality in all walks of life.

Peter Price

Before it is lost can I go back to a point that Cllr Goodway made a while ago. He downplayed the distinctive Welsh approach and as I understood, what he is saying, is because there is this division between primary powers in London and the executive powers in Cardiff, there really was not a distinctive Welsh approach. If you linked it to this previous discussion, what you are really saying is there is an incoherence preventing the development of a distinctive Welsh approach, because the Assembly’s powers are being exercised in a way which involves close interplay with local government and various forces in Wales, but there is power of a primary nature in London exercised by different people, where the Welsh MPs are part of another body and hardly surprisingly politically somewhat distant from what is actually the result of that interplay in which Welsh local government plays a part.

Cllr Russell Goodway

I am far more concerned as a community leader. The responsibilities that we as local government have in community leadership at the moment are set out in the 2000 act. That is to try and articulate hopes and aspirations of people. This issue of a distinctive Welsh approach, I am not persuaded that there is an overwhelming call within the community for something different. It sounds good when the Minister announces that we will not have to pay tuition fees in Wales, and that the Assembly are looking for powers so that Welsh universities do not have to charge tuition. But when people start to understand that they have to pay for that somehow, and the cost will be £100 million a year, is the English Parliament, as they see it, going to foot another £100 million so that Wales will not have to charge tuition fees? The answer is no. When people start to understand that they will eventually pick up the tab for that, the distinctive Welsh approach certainly goes out of the window, because people start to question the reality of it. There is a cost to it. The point I make is that it is easy to talk about it, but not easy to deliver. Not because of the absence of power, but because of how you are going to pay for it. This is a distinct danger I think in building people’s aspirations, and then when they realise the downside of it, giving up on the whole experiment, and I think that there are dangers, and I do not think people can touch it in a tangible way. What the Assembly ought to be doing is nation building, getting the people behind this Welsh dimension and getting them to argue about it, when they are in pubs and clubs, arguing in favour of doing something different in Wales and being prepared to pay in order to achieve that.

Peter Price

Is the only point then about preparedness to pay, because what you only seemed to be arguing for is that we ought to actually be pursuing a united common policy for England and Wales across all these major fields.

Cllr Russell Goodway

No, what I am saying is that there is an appetite for something different in Wales, and Welsh MPs ought to be making people argue for it and have a convincing case for it.

Peter Price

Your argument is that there is no such appetite?

Cllr Russell Goodway

Not at the moment. I can not touch it. I can not sense it in Cardiff, but then Cardiff may be-

Sandy Blair

If we could broaden it a little bit from the sense of public appetite to just making effective the way we work at the moment. I think we as an Association can recognise that perhaps not unnaturally in the first few years of the Assembly we could have concentrated greatly on our relationship with them, and partly diverted by our use of the LGA, we have perhaps lost sight of it, of the importance of ensuring there is a tri-partite approach to the Government. We talk about the spheres of government and the spheres of representation, but the way we have related to MPs has not been anything like as consistent or overt as our relationship with the Assembly. We can perceive local government as being a devolved issue. On the other hand, the longer we go through this process, and as the Assembly’s powers and responsibilities become more obvious, and the opportunities for us working together become overt, then we realise that if a constitutional settlement is retained, we ought to be doing more with Westminster MPs as well. That is something that we probably do not take sufficiently into account until recently. We have a similar view about our need to recognise the European dimension as well. We need to understand that and concentrate our efforts and take steps about that. Going back to one of things Ted said, that we did not cover, was that we do very much appreciate the increased amount of opportunity to scrutinise draft legislation. That is an effective approach and the opportunity to work with the Welsh Select Affairs Committee has allowed us to recognise more than perhaps we did previously, how important that aspect is.

Peter Price

If legislation is from London rather than Cardiff, the lead department is going to be the office of the Deputy Prime Minister in many of the fields that you are interested in. Did I understand correctly that you have no relationship of a direct character with the office of the Deputy Prime Minister, and you rely entirely on secondary legislation.

Sandy Blair

Almost everything that the ODPM has is devolved. It is the services of other government departments with non-devolved aspects of local government where we need to work harder- We have some, but they are more personal.

Steve Thomas

You need to see the wider English dimension. There is a thing in England called the Central Local Partnership, which is chaired by John Prescott. Sir Harry Jones, the leader of the Association, sits on that partnership. That is a direct linkage from the Wales side into the English debate.

Peter Price

So that is a body where quite a lot of people sit around the table. What about direct links between you and the departments who will be responsible for the legislation that you are saying is invested in London.

Sandy Blair

Our current approach is that we would normally rely on our colleagues in the LGA who have that relationship.

Ted Rowlands

One question is that one area that has not been devolved in many public sector areas is that of pay and pensions, which are very basically non-devolved. Is it the view of the Association that they should be or are they better left where they are.

Sandy Blair

Our current line on this is a recognition of potentially increasing to some degree of regional flexibility, but we also are heavily supportive of there being a core structure of pay and more limitedly on conditions, that gives consistency throughout the England and Wales local government service and related services. There have been very significant changes in local government pay arrangements in the last few years, which have led to a greater opportunity for individual authorities and groups of authorities to have more flexibility about local pay deals, but we have relied on a national negotiating approach for the core, as you will be aware. That in itself is being modernised in order to streamline it and make it more effective, and we are currently contributing to the independent pay commission for local government, which is due to report in September. We identified in that a majority of areas where we have a common thread, but some issues that were going to be specific to the Welsh region.

Eira Davies

Can I pursue your reference to the unfinished business. How would you finish the business regarding the non-elected bodies? Do you have any suggestions for alternative models?

Cllr Russell Goodway

Yes, abolish them and democratise them. That was the promise that was given. The one thing we are unanimously agreed on is that we would never have won the referendum in 1997 unless that promise was given to abolish the quangos. If that promise was not there, the referendum would have been lost.

Dr Laura McAllister

What about the Sports Council for Wales?

Cllr Russell Goodway

Democratise it.

Dr Laura McAllister

How would you democratise it in terms of local government. Who would take-

Cllr Russell Goodway

I hope that we are not the last bastion of democracy. There should be democracy across the piece.

Dr Laura McAllister

Do you have a clear vision of how-

Cllr Russell Goodway

There are things that could be devolved to local government. Since the Assembly you have seen the reverse. The power has been taken away from local government and been quango-ised. Elwa for instance is a classic example. We don’t have power over our sixth forms any more, and that is supposed to make it clearer, is it, that in the same building sixth form education is funded from a different place than years 11 to whatever. I think that we need to look at constitutional arrangements, and that is what we used to call it before the 1997 election, the democratic deficit that exists in our country. There is absolutely no reason why, if there is a need to have a Sports Council for Wales, why the people could not be elected. Why can you not have an election for the Sports Council? Moreover, I think it would be a useful exercise, and I hope that my colleagues in the Assembly will take this in the spirit that it is meant, but you could have the opportunity of giving Assembly Members a real job to do. Instead of spending most of their time writing letters to me about Mrs Jones’ drain, the Minister of the National Assembly should be chairing the Sports Council, or the Arts Minister should be chairing the Arts Council, and directing operations, by an elected official. Why is that you have 60 members at the National Assembly, and they rely upon agencies and appointees to make the important decisions. That is what this was supposed to change.

Dr Laura McAllister

I would just like to be absolutely crystal clear about this. The whole range of quangos that do exist are very disparate. Some of them are advisory, some are executive, some are very large and some are very small. Are you saying that all of them should be directly elected, or that some of them should not exist, or that they should have a much clearer remit in terms of their policy input? Can you explain, if that is your response, what would be the dangers of overload on the elected tiers that currently exist in terms of developing strategy? Sport is an area I know, but developing a strategy for children’s participation in sport and actually enacting it on the ground. Is there not a danger-

Cllr Colin Mann

We have one already.

Dr Laura McAllister

Yes sure, but can you just answer those questions?

Huw Vaughan Thomas

Before you do, can I also here given the range of options that you have been asked to comment on, add the idea that you absorb them into the Assembly and create Government departments?

Cllr Russell Goodway

If you look at the Culture Department, there are officials in the National Assembly that I deal with directly, and the Minister in terms of Culture, and you have the Arts Council, which I also have to deal with, and the Sports Council which I also have to deal with. Life is not easy in Wales for somebody like me, with trips to all these people who are making decisions and having influence over these matters. I just do not understand why those institutions can not be brought within the Assembly, and Assembly Members form the executive board of the Sports Council or the Arts Council. They are directly elected individuals and they can answer to the electorate for their decisions.

Dr Laura McAllister

What about overload. In terms of developing local sports development plans, ensuring that development officers deliver and manage sport, all of those things, would that really be feasible in an Assembly that you do not want to see increased beyond-

Cllr Russell Goodway

I think it would be feasible if the Assembly worked in partnership with local authorities.

Cllr Colin Mann

Talking about sport, through schools and other things, we have sports officers and things like that. The reality is that local government is involved in sports, but it is an issue in our area because of low participation rates which we need to sort out. The environment agency, there are things that directly affect my constituents, to do with refuse and tipping, that can not be dealt with by the environmental officers that we have because they were taken away from us to the Environment Agency. There are a whole range of powers that local government could deal with which are being allegedly governed by unelected quangos, and it is one of the biggest disappointments with the public, the famous phrase ‘the bonfire of the quangos’, but nobody has ever found a box of matches yet. It is probably one of the biggest disappointments over what has happened over the last few years. The only real change in the lessening of the number of quangos was by combining a few of them.

Dr Laura McAllister

Do you have a view on which ones might be abolished?

Cllr Colin Mann

We have not had a whole exercise of taking a look at these. It is something that should have been tackled by the Assembly, to make sense of the whole-

Sandy Blair

We did in fact invite the Assembly to undertake such an exercise on the basis that the bottom line of the Association is the need that current Assembly sponsored bodies and other unelected deliverers of service should be subjected to appropriate democratic accountability relevant to their scale, size and operation, some of which are direct and some of which would be more…..

Lord Richard

Some of which may be down to local authority.

Sandy Blair

Some to local authority, some through collaborations of local authorities, some through the Assembly, as is appropriate to their scale and range of activity.

Cllr Colin Mann

Look at the mess of economic development. Who do you go to as small business person wanting help. There are 20 different organisations. It is nonsense.

Tom Jones

You have said that you do not want to see an increase in the number of Assembly members. If all these quangos were brought in-house, chaired by Assembly Ministers with the scrutiny done by non ministerial members and the opposition, would this review your view on the subject?

Cllr Russell Goodway

I am not entirely persuaded that they needed or their holiday. One of the biggest downsides is that they are never there. If they were doing more there would be a justification for an agenda. Then you have to grow with it. You can say we are doing all these things, things are getting better, and as a result we genuinely need more capacity in order to improve. You are not going to convince ordinary folk suddenly to expand by another however many if things did not get better overnight.

Cllr Colin Mann

My colleagues certainly compare the number of hours they work and they could quote 50-70 hours a week, with the various duties, but the apparent hours of the assembly members, and I know a lot of them sit on committees, Houses of Parliament, or whatever, but it is an issue in the public perception. As I said earlier, with proper powers in the Assembly, I would certainly accept that we would have probably 80 members. I see it as a process, not an event. I see that as an ongoing process and we have to have quid-pro-quo on the numbers elected.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

There has been a lot of stress on the elected members. What do you think of the recommendations in the Sunderland report?

Cllr Colin Mann

My party favours single transferable votes.

Sandy Blair

The Association sticks with first past the post that we have now.

Cllr Russell Goodway

We are not particularly happy with the electoral arrangements in the Assembly either. We would advocate first past the post there. But as a compromise we would look at tweaking the existing arrangements, and there is no support for the existing mechanism for election-

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Tweak the existing mechanism to do what?

Cllr Russell Goodway

For a start we do not thing it is right that the same person can be on a constituency’s ballot paper and also be a regional candidate. This is something that confuses the electorate no end, the fact that a candidate can stand in Cardiff North and be defeated, and suddenly end up representing the whole of Cardiff. They can not understand that.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

If you were keeping the same numbers, what electoral system would you put in its place?

Cllr Russell Goodway

What we are arguing in this document, is that we have arrangements in place, so that if you are going to have a system of 40 members elected by constituency on a first past the post basis, and retain the other 20, those 20 members ought to be in proportion to the votes cast in each of the regions, and that the individuals that get elected to the Assembly should be those that poll the most number of votes in the first past the post election. At the moment you have a situation where somebody can poll 2,000 votes in a first cast of votes, compared to another person in the same party that polls 10,000 in the first cast of votes, but the person with the lower number of votes is the one that actually wins through to go to the list.

Cllr Colin Mann

That is a huge confusion for me.

Cllr Russell Goodway

It does need to be looked at. We take the view that if you are going to retain 60 Assembly members, first you ought not to be able to be a candidate on both lists, but if that is to remain, there needs to be a way of ensuring that the person demonstrates the greatest amount of popular support to be the one that wins through, not the one that demonstrated the least amount of popular support. This is what happens at the moment.

Cllr Colin Mann

There are many countries in the world where this works and we think it is a fairer system and certainly less confusing that we have at the moment.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much for a very enjoyable session.

Sandy Blair

Can we just mention that in addition to local authorities, we also hold membership of fire authorities, police authorities and national parks. We understand you are taking separate evidence and we are supportive of the evidence of the police. We understand and we ought to acknowledge-

Lord Richard

You are going to send us that?

Sandy Blair

Yes.

Lord Richard

Good. Thank you very much indeed.