Datganiad ar y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Bwerau’r Cynulliad
Statement on the Independent Commission on Assembly Powers

The First Minister: The partnership agreement of October 2000 included a commitment to establish, before the end of the Assembly’s first term, an independent commission on the powers and electoral arrangements of the National Assembly to ensure that it is able to operate in the best interests of the people of Wales. I am pleased to make a preliminary announcement today to take this matter forward. I have invited Lord Richard of Ammanford to chair the commission and I am delighted to say that he has accepted the invitation. Ivor Richard was born and raised in Ammanford and attended school in Llanelli. He was called to the Bar in 1955 and has since been a member of the House of Commons, a Government Minister, the UK permanent representative at the United Nations, a Commissioner of the European Economic Community, chair of the Rhodesia conference in 1976, a member of the Shadow Cabinet as Leader of the Opposition in the House of Lords between 1992 and 1997, and a member of the Cabinet as Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords between 1997 and 1998. That is not a bad curriculum vitae. Lord Richard is an eminent lawyer and parliamentarian with an understanding and experience of government in many parts of the world. He will bring to this commission both an independence of mind and the ability to lead a team that can evaluate all the issues arising from the first full term of the Assembly’s operations and consider whether there is evidence that changes could make the Assembly better able to deliver what Wales needs.

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Yr oedd y cytundeb partneriaeth yn Hydref 2000 yn cynnwys ymrwymiad i sefydlu, cyn pen tymor cyntaf y Cynulliad, gomisiwn annibynnol ar bwerau a threfniadau etholiadol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i sicrhau ei fod yn gallu gweithredu er buddiannau gorau pobl Cymru. Yr wyf yn falch o wneud cyhoeddiad rhagarweiniol heddiw i symud ymlaen â’r mater hwn. Yr wyf wedi gwahodd yr Arglwydd Richard o Rydaman i gadeirio’r comisiwn ac yr wyf yn falch iawn o ddweud ei fod wedi derbyn y gwahoddiad. Ganwyd a magwyd Ivor Richard yn Rhydaman ac aeth i’r ysgol yn Llanelli. Fe’i galwyd i’r Bar yn 1955 ac ers hynny bu’n aelod o Dy’r Cyffredin, yn Weinidog Llywodraeth, yn gynrychiolydd parhaol y DU yn y Cenhedloedd Unedig, yn Gomisiynydd i’r Gymuned Economaidd Ewropeaidd, yn gadeirydd cynhadledd Rhodesia yn 1976, yn aelod o Gabinet yr Wrthblaid fel Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid yn Nhy’r Arglwyddi rhwng 1992 a 1997, ac yn aelod o’r Cabinet fel Arglwydd y Sêl Gyfrin ac Arweinydd Ty’r Arglwyddi rhwng 1997 a 1998. Mae hwnnw’n eithaf curriculum vitae. Mae’r Arglwydd Richard yn gyfreithiwr ac yn seneddwr blaenllaw a chanddo ddealltwriaeth a phrofiad o lywodraeth mewn llawer rhan o’r byd. Bydd yn dod ag annibyniaeth barn i’r comisiwn hwn a’r gallu i arwain tîm sy’n gallu gwerthuso’r holl faterion sy’n codi o weithrediadau tymor llawn cyntaf y Cynulliad ac ystyried a oes tystiolaeth y gallai newidiadau beri i’r Cynulliad allu cyflawni’r hyn y mae ar Gymru ei angen yn well.

The broad purpose of the commission is defined in the partnership agreement. I will discuss with Lord Richard and others, including party leaders in the Assembly, the commission’s precise terms of reference and mode of operation. On the appointment of the other members of the commission, its total membership should not exceed 10. There will be consultation on membership with the political parties represented in the Assembly and I expect four members of the commission to emerge from such consultation. The rest will be appointed through advertisement under the Nolan-Neill rules. I have agreed with Lord Richard that the commission will be expected to begin its work in the summer of this year as soon as the appointment process is complete. It will report in the autumn of 2003.

Diffinnir pwrpas cyffredinol y comisiwn yn y cytundeb partneriaeth. Byddaf yn trafod union gylch gorchwyl a dull gweithredu’r comisiwn gyda’r Arglwydd Richard ac eraill, gan gynnwys arweinyddion y pleidiau yn y Cynulliad. Ynghylch penodi aelodau eraill y comisiwn, mae’n debyg na fydd nifer yr aelodau’n fwy na 10. Ymgynghorir ar yr aelodaeth gyda’r pleidiau gwleidyddol a gynrychiolir yn y Cynulliad a disgwyliaf y bydd pedwar aelod o’r comisiwn yn dod ymlaen o ganlyniad i ymgynghori o’r fath. Penodir y gweddill drwy hysbysebu o dan reolau Nolan-Neill. Yr wyf wedi cytuno â’r Arglwydd Richard y bydd disgwyl i’r comisiwn ddechrau ar ei waith yn yr haf eleni cyn gynted ag y cwblheir y broses penodi. Bydd yn adrodd yn hydref 2003.

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Nid yw’n newydd i chi nac i unrhyw un arall yn y Cynulliad bod Plaid Cymru yn ystyried bod y ffordd ymlaen i’r Cynulliad yn glir. Yr ydym am i’r Cynulliad gael pwerau deddfu a phwerau i amrywio trethi ar sail model Senedd yr Alban. Credwn hefyd bod angen diddymu’r syniad o gorff corfforaethol a sicrhau bod gwahaniaeth clir rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r corff sy’n deddfu. Yr unig gwestiwn yw pa bwerau ychwanegol a ddylai ddod i’r Cynulliad, yn ogystal â’r rhai sydd yn cael eu trafod ar hyn o bryd ar faterion megis yr heddlu a rheilffyrdd. Yr wyf yn sicr bod mwyafrif Aelodau’r Cynulliad o blaid cael pwerau deddfu a threthu. Dylem sicrhau bod dyheadau’r mwyafrif hwnnw yn cael eu cyflawni.

The Leader of the Opposition (Ieuan Wyn Jones): It will come as no surprise to you or to anyone else in the Assembly that Plaid Cymru’s vision for the Assembly is unambiguous. We want the Assembly to have legislative and tax-varying powers comparable to the Scottish Parliament model. We also believe that the concept of a corporate body should be abolished, and that we should ensure that there is a clear difference between the Government and the legislative body. The only question is which extra powers should be devolved to the Assembly, in addition to those being discussed at present on matters such as the police and railways. I am sure that the majority of Assembly Members are in favour of legislative and tax-varying powers. We should ensure that the will of that majority is realised.

Deallwn pam y bu ichi sefydlu’r comisiwn annibynnol fel rhan o’r cytundeb clymbleidiol rhyngoch a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae’n debyg nad oedd yn bosibl ichi ar y pryd gael undod barn o fewn eich plaid ym mae Caerdydd ac yn San Steffan. Er bod mwyafrif o’ch Aelodau Cynulliad o blaid symud ymlaen, mae’n bosibl nad yw rhannau eraill o’r Blaid Lafur yr un mor frwd. Deallwn felly’r angen i sefydlu comisiwn annibynnol. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf nad yr un fydd tynged y comisiwn annibynnol hwn â’r ymchwiliad ar etholiadau llywodraeth leol. Rhoddwyd cylch gorchwyl i’r ymchwiliad hwnnw, ond penderfynodd y Blaid Lafur yn ei chynhadledd fis Mawrth beidio â newid y drefn i ethol i lywodraeth leol. Gobeithiaf na wnewch yr un peth â’r comisiwn annibynnol—hynny yw, dod i benderfyniad cyn i’r comisiwn gyhoeddi ei gasgliadau.

We understand why you established the independent commission as part of the coalition agreement between yourselves and the Liberal Democrats. It seems that it was not possible for you, at the time, to reach a consensus within your party in Cardiff bay and in Westminster. Even though a majority of your Assembly Members are in favour of moving on, it is possible that other parts of the Labour Party are not so keen. We therefore understand the need to establish an independent commission. However, I hope that the fate of this independent commission is not the same as that of the inquiry into local government elections. Terms of reference were set for that inquiry, but in its conference in March the Labour Party decided not to change the system of electing to local government. I hope that you will not do the same with the independent commission—that is, come to a decision before the commission publishes its conclusions.

Gan ichi wneud y cyhoeddiad hwn, gobeithiwn y bydd y broses yn symud ymlaen yn fuan. Derbyniwn y cyhoeddiad heddiw a dymunwn yn dda i Ivor Richard yn y gwaith pwysig hwn. Oherwydd pwysigrwydd y gwaith, rhaid inni ofyn rhai cwestiynau ynglyn â’r broses. Fel yr awgrymasoch, mae’n bwysig inni ystyried cylch gorchwyl y comisiwn. Nid wyf yn sicr fod yr hyn a nodir yn y cytundeb partneriaeth yr un peth â’r hyn a nodir yn eich datganiad heddiw. Mae’n bwysig inni ystyried y geiriad. Dywedasoch yn y cytundeb partneriaeth y byddech yn ystyried pwerau a threfniadau etholiadol y Cynulliad ac, ymysg materion eraill, ehangu cyfranoldeb yng nghyfansoddiad y Cynulliad. Hoffem gael cadarnhad y bydd popeth a oedd yn gynwysedig yn y cytundeb partneriaeth yn rhan o gylch gorchwyl y comisiwn annibynnol hwn. Yr ydym yn fodlon cyfrannu i’r drafodaeth ar y cylch gorchwyl.

As you have made this announcement, we hope that the process will move forward soon. We accept today’s announcement and wish Ivor Richard well in this important work. Given the importance of the work, we must ask some questions about the process. As you suggested, it is important that we consider the commission’s remit. I am not sure that what is noted in the partnership agreement corrresponds to your statement today. It is important that we consider the wording. You stated in the partnership agreement that you would consider the Assembly’s powers and electoral arrangements and, among other things, extending proportionality in the Assembly’s constitution. We would like an assurance that everything that was included in the partnership agreement will be included in this independent commission’s remit. We are willing to contribute to the discussion on the terms of reference.

Y mater pwysig arall a godaf yw’r panel y byddwch yn ei sefydlu i ystyried aelodau’r comisiwn i’w penodi dan reolau Nolan-Neill. Yn eich barn chi, beth fydd natur aelodaeth y panel a fydd yn gwneud penodiadau o dan y rheolau hynny?

The other important issue that I wish to raise is the panel that will be established to appoint commission members under Nolan-Neill rules. In your opinion, what should the make-up of the panel that would make the appointments under those rules be?

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Diolch am ysbryd cydweithredol eich ymateb, Ieuan. Fe atebaf y cwestiwn olaf yn gyntaf. O ran y panel a fyddai’n gwneud y penodiadau cyhoeddus yn ôl rheolau Nolan-Neill, yr ydym eisiau glynu mor agos â phosibl at yr egwyddorion a ddefnyddir yn y Cynulliad wrth benodi cadeirydd neu aelod o gwango. Ni ellir dilyn yr un drefn yn union gan mai nid Pwyllgor Pwnc fydd yn penodi’r bobl i ffurfio’r panel. Gwneir hynny gan banel a fydd yn cynnwys Aelodau o’r meinciau cefn, ond nid oes Pwyllgor Pwnc perthnasol i enwebu aelodau i fod ar y panel. Rhaid inni drafod sut y gallwn gael cynrychiolwyr o’r pleidiau eraill mewn modd sy’n cyfateb â’r drefn benodi arferol. Mae’r ewyllys yn bodoli i’w wneud yn yr un modd â phe byddem yn penodi cadeirydd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, er enghraifft. O ran y cylch gwaith, yr ydym yn hapus i drafod gydag arweinyddion pleidiau’r Cynulliad ac Ivor Richard er mwyn sefydlu cylch gwaith erbyn bod y broses benodi wedi dod i ben, rhyw ddeufis o heddiw, dyweder.

The First Minister: I am grateful for the co-co-operative spirit of your response, Ieuan. I will respond to the last question first. As regards the public appointments panel which will operate according to the Nolan-Neill rules, we want to adhere as closely as possible to the principles used by the Assembly when appointing the chair or a member of a quango. We cannot follow exactly the same procedure because panel members will not be appointed by a Subject Committee. It will be done by a panel that will include backbench Members, but there is no appropriate Subject Committee to nominate panel members. We must discuss how we can include representatives from the other parties in accordance with the usual procedure. The will exists to do so in the same way as we would appoint the chair of the Welsh Development Agency, for example. In terms of the remit, we are happy to discuss the issue with the Assembly party leaders and Ivor Richard so that it may be in place by the end of the appointment process, approximately two months from today.

11:05 a.m.

O ran y ffaith nad wyf wedi ailadrodd rhai geiriau heddiw, nid yw’n golygu dim heblaw y ffaith fy mod yn trafod y mater gan ddefnyddio llai o eiriau heddiw nag sydd yn y cytundeb partneriaeth. Mae popeth sydd yn cyfeirio at y syniad hwn yn y cytundeb partneriaeth yn parhau i fod yn berthnasol i waith y comisiwn o ran sefydlu’r cylch gorchwyl. Nid ydym am fynd yn rhy bell o’r geiriad, ond nid oes rhaid ailadrodd yr un geiriau yn union er mwyn darbwyllo pobl nad oes cynllwyn.

In terms of some words not being repeated today, that does not mean anything other than that I am discussing the matter using fewer words today than are contained in the partnership agreement. All references to this in the partnership agreement are still relevant to the commission’s work in terms of agreeing a remit. We do not want to stray too far from the wording, but I do not have to repeat the exact words to convince people that there is no conspiracy.

O ran y pwyntiau mwy cyffredinol a godoch, Ieuan, mae’n bwysig nad oes neb yn mynegi ymlaen llaw yr hyn y maent am ei gael o’r comisiwn. Yr ydym am i’r comisiwn fod yn annibynnol, gyda meddwl agored wrth edrych ar y ffeithiau a’r dystiolaeth, gan ddod â’r argymhellion i’r Cynulliad nesaf yn ystod ei chwe mis cyntaf. Ar ôl hynny, aiff i’r broses wleidyddol o lunio maniffestos gogyfer ag etholiad cyffredinol San Steffan. Pe byddai argymhellion a fyddai angen deddfwriaeth gynradd, byddai’n rhaid iddynt ymddangos mewn maniffestos yn ystod etholiad cyffredinol nesaf San Steffan yn 2005 neu 2006.

In terms of the more general points that you raised, Ieuan, it is important that nobody states beforehand what they want from the commission. We want the commission to be independent and to have an open mind in looking at the facts and evidence, and then to bring recommendations to the next Assembly during its first six months. Following that, it will become part of the political process of drawing up manifestos for the general election in Westminster. If there were recommendations requiring primary legislation, they would have to appear in manifestos at the time of the next Westminster general election in 2005 or 2006.

Ron Davies: I welcome your announcement this morning, Rhodri, first, by supporting the principle of the commission and secondly, by congratulating Ivor Richard on his appointment. He is an able and experienced Welsh politician who is committed to devolution. I am sure that everybody will respect his independence and ability to do the task ahead of him. However, there are difficulties in handling this matter because, as you rightly say, it is the product of the agreement that you have with the Liberal Democrats. However, as an Assembly, we have never had the opportunity of debating either the partnership agreement or the idea, timing or remit of the commission. It does not restart the process on a particularly sound note when we are charging an independent commission with the opportunity of considering these wide issues when we have not had the opportunity of having even the most cursory of debates on them. Secondly, we have the passing disadvantage of having to face the electorate in some 15 months’ time on the basis of saying, ‘vote for us, and after the election, we will tell you what we think about the future of our own institution.’ I would have thought that if the principle of a commission is so valuable, the process could have been started when you made the deal with the Liberal Democrats some 18 months ago. The commission could have done its work, we could have had the debate, the political parties in Wales could have considered their views, and we could have given the people of Wales the choice in the next Assembly elections. I listened with interest to your response to Ieuan on the question of manifestos for the general election in 2005 or 2006. However, do not let anybody believe that general elections in Wales or anywhere else are fought on the basis of constitutional change: they will be fought on the big issues. There is no prospect of a meaningful debate in Wales on these matters if they are to be subsumed within a general election.

Ron Davies: Croesawaf eich cyhoeddiad y bore yma, Rhodri, yn gyntaf, drwy gefnogi egwyddor y comisiwn ac, yn ail, drwy longyfarch Ivor Richard ar ei benodiad. Mae’n wleidydd galluog a phrofiadol o Gymro sydd wedi ymrwymo i ddatganoli. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd pawb yn parchu ei annibyniaeth a’i allu i gyflawni’r dasg sydd o’i flaen. Fodd bynnag, mae anawsterau wrth drafod y mater hwn oherwydd, fel y dywedwch yn gywir, mae’n ffrwyth i’r cytundeb sydd gennych â’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Fodd bynnag, fel Cynulliad, ni chawsom erioed gyfle i drafod y cytundeb partneriaeth na syniad, amseriad a chylch gwaith y comisiwn. Nid yw’n ailgychwyn y broses ar nodyn arbennig o gadarn pan ydym yn rhoi cyfle i gomisiwn annibynnol ystyried y materion eang hyn a ninnau heb gael cyfle i’w trafod hyd yn oed yn y modd mwyaf arwynebol. Yn ail, mae gennym yr anfantais wrth fynd heibio o orfod wynebu’r etholwyr ymhen tua 15 mis ar y sail o ddweud, ‘pleidleisiwch drosom ni, ac ar ôl yr etholiad, fe ddywedwn wrthych beth yw’n barn am ddyfodol ein sefydliad ein hun.’ Byddwn wedi meddwl, os oedd egwyddor y comisiwn mor werthfawr, y gallesid bod wedi cychwyn y broses pan wnaethoch y fargen â’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol tua 18 mis yn ôl. Gallai’r comisiwn fod wedi gwneud ei waith, gallem ni fod wedi cael y ddadl, gallai’r pleidiau gwleidyddol yng Nghymru fod wedi ystyried eu barn, a gallem fod wedi cynnig y dewis i bobl Cymru yn etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad. Gwrandewais gyda diddordeb ar eich ymateb i Ieuan ar fater y maniffestos ar gyfer yr etholiad cyffredinol yn 2005 neu 2006. Fodd bynnag, na adawer i neb gredu y caiff etholiadau cyffredinol yng Nghymru nac yn unman arall eu hymladd ar sail newid cyfansoddiadol; fe’u hymladdir ar y materion pwysig. Nid oes gobaith am ddadl ystyrlon yng Nghymru ar y materion hyn os ydynt i’w cynnwys mewn etholiad cyffredinol.

I welcome the principle of the commission. I believe it will result—however the process goes—in the conveying of substantial powers of primary legislation to the National Assembly for Wales, and I welcome that. Ivor Richard will do a good job, but I ask for an assurance that once the final arrangements are in place for the commission, but before it begins its work, you will come to this Assembly with a full report and allow us to have a full debate in Government time on the commission, its remit and the nature of its work.

Croesawaf egwyddor y comisiwn. Credaf y bydd yn arwain—sut bynnag yr aiff y broses—at drosglwyddo pwerau deddfu sylfaenol sylweddol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, a chroesawaf hynny. Gwnaiff Ivor Richard waith da, ond gofynnaf am sicrwydd, ar ôl rhoi’r trefniadau terfynol ar waith ar gyfer y comisiwn, ond cyn iddo ddechrau ar ei waith, y dewch i’r Cynulliad hwn ag adroddiad llawn a chaniatáu inni gael dadl lawn yn amser y Llywodraeth ar y comisiwn, ei gylch gwaith a natur ei waith.

The First Minister: That would seem to be wholly appropriate, Ron. I think that the right time for that would be when the membership has been set up, the commission is ready to commence its work and we have draft terms of reference. It should then come before the Assembly for a vote and, more importantly perhaps, a full discussion, so that everyone gets their thoughts off their chest before the commission begins its work. I hope that it will work independently of us but before it starts it needs to know what the Assembly thinks across the board. That should not be in the spirit of us trying to instruct the commission, because we are not delegating powers to it, but asking it to do a job on our behalf because it can be done much more easily in combination. That is why we have split the appointments process in two, if you like: so that as well as politicians we have experts, perhaps, appointed through Nolan-Neill rules. Those people could be representatives of the citizenry, or people with great expertise in constitutional law, the Whitehall machine, how we operate in Wales; I do not know. This other half of the membership—about four or five people—could represent both the citizenry and expertise. I hope that it is the right balance to enable the commission to do its job. However, it is not a matter of us delegating powers to the commission. It will report back to us with recommendations. If those recommendations require a change in primary legislation, it is, inevitably, not a matter for us. We have always accepted that any change in our powers is not a matter for us. However, there would be a much better chance of getting us additional powers if that was what the commission, and the new Assembly elected in May 2003, thought was right. It has always been evident that any proposed change would have to go to Whitehall and Westminster for consideration, because we do not have the powers to change our founding legislation.

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Mae hynny’n ymddangos yn gwbl briodol, Ron. Credaf mai’r adeg briodol i hynny fyddai pan fydd yr aelodaeth wedi’i phennu, a’r comisiwn yn barod i ddechrau ar ei waith a’r cylch gorchwyl drafft gennym. Dylai ddod o flaen y Cynulliad wedyn ar gyfer pleidlais ac, yn bwysicach efallai, i’w drafod yn llawn, fel bod pawb yn cael dweud ei farn cyn i’r comisiwn ddechrau ar ei waith. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn gweithio’n annibynnol arnom ni ond cyn iddo ddechrau rhaid iddo wybod beth y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei feddwl yn gyffredinol. Ni ddylem wneud hynny o ran ceisio cyfarwyddo’r comisiwn, oherwydd nid ydym yn dirprwyo pwer iddo, ond gofyn iddo wneud swydd ar ein rhan gan y gellir ei wneud yn haws o lawer mewn cyfuniad. Dyna pam y rhanasom y broses penodi’n ddau, os hoffech: fel bod gennym, yn ogystal â gwleidyddion, arbenigwyr, efallai, a benodir yn ôl rheolau Nolan-Neill. Gallai’r bobl hynny fod yn gynrychiolwyr i’r dinasyddion, neu’n rhai sydd ag arbenigedd mawr mewn cyfraith gyfansoddiadol, peirianwaith Whitehall, sut yr ydym yn gweithredu yng Nghymru; ni wn. Gallai’r hanner arall hwn o’r aelodaeth—tua phedwar neu bump o bobl—gynrychioli’r dinasyddion ac arbenigedd. Gobeithiaf mai hwnnw yw’r cydbwysedd iawn i alluogi’r comisiwn i wneud ei waith. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n fater o ddirprwyo’r pwerau oddi wrthym ni i’r comisiwn. Bydd yn adrodd yn ôl i ni gydag argymhellion. Os yw’r argymhellion hynny’n gofyn am newid mewn deddfwriaeth sylfaenol, mae’n anochel na fydd hynny’n fater i ni. Yr ydym yn derbyn erioed nad yw unrhyw newid yn ein pwerau’n fater i ni. Fodd bynnag, byddai llawer gwell gobaith inni gael pwerau ychwanegol os oedd y comisiwn, a’r Cynulliad newydd a etholir ym Mai 2003, yn credu mai hynny oedd yn iawn. Mae’n amlwg erioed y byddai’n rhaid i unrhyw newid arfaethedig fynd i Whitehall a San Steffan i’w ystyried, oherwydd nid oes gennym bwerau i newid ein deddfwriaeth sefydlu.

Nick Bourne: I will comment first on the appointment of Ivor Richard. He clearly has considerable clout in Westminster and Whitehall. We recognise that and that will be useful. However, he can scarcely to be said to be independent in the party sense, given his past. He has a distinguished record, but it is essentially a Labour Party record. To that extent it is perhaps regrettable that we do not have a truly independent chairman, who is independent of all political parties. However, we will see how he performs in the role. He has considerable clout, but I give that health warning. I know that you have knowledge and experience of him in Europe, First Minister, but it is important that he is seen to operate independently.

Nick Bourne: Gwnaf sylw’n gyntaf ar benodi Ivor Richard. Mae’n amlwg bod ganddo gryn ddylanwad yn San Steffan a Whitehall. Yr ydym yn cydnabod hynny a bydd hynny’n ddefnyddiol. Fodd bynnag, prin y gellir dweud ei fod yn annibynnol yn yr ystyr bleidiol, o ystyried ei orffennol. Cafodd yrfa nodedig, ond gyrfa yn y Blaid Lafur ydyw yn y bôn. I’r graddau hynny mae’n destun gofid, efallai, nad oes gennym gadeirydd gwirioneddol annibynnol, sy’n annibynnol ar bob plaid wleidyddol. Fodd bynnag, fe welwn sut y bydd yn perfformio yn y rôl. Mae ganddo gryn ddylanwad, ond rhoddaf y rhybudd iechyd hwnnw. Gwn fod gennych wybodaeth a phrofiad ohono yn Ewrop, Brif Weinidog Cymru, ond mae’n bwysig y caiff ei weld yn un sy’n gweithredu’n annibynnol.

Having heard the leader of Plaid Cymru speak, it is important that the Welsh Conservatives participate in this process. Ieuan Wyn Jones said that a majority of Members are in favour of primary legislative powers for the Assembly. If that is true, it is all the more important that we participate, because there is not a majority in Wales in favour of such powers for the Assembly. We will put this case forcefully. This body needs to ensure that we deliver more effectively within the terms of the referendum, when the people of Wales made their decision, albeit narrowly, on how we operate. Well, there are splits in other parties, certainly in the Labour Party; we know that Alun Pugh has a different view from that of the Cabinet. However, if we were running the Assembly we would do things differently. We would not have announced the future of the Wales European Centre by means of a ministerial statement. We would have held a debate on it. It is important that this institution is able to walk before there is any question of it running. At the moment there is evidence that it cannot even crawl; decisions are taken without reference to the Assembly. Therefore, we will participate and it is important that we do so. We will participate in agreeing the remit. However, bear in mind that when people voted for the National Assembly, they voted narrowly in favour of it. There is little or no evidence that people want legislative or tax-raising powers for the Assembly. They want us to deliver services now within our current powers.

Ar ôl clywed geiriau arweinydd Plaid Cymru, mae’n bwysig bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru’n cymryd rhan yn y broses hon. Dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones fod mwyafrif o’r Aelodau o blaid cael pwerau deddfu sylfaenol i’r Cynulliad. Os yw hynny’n wir, mae’n bwysicach byth ein bod yn cymryd rhan, oherwydd nid oes mwyafrif yng Nghymru sydd o blaid cael pwerau o’r fath i’r Cynulliad. Byddwn yn cyflwyno’r ddadl hon yn rymus. Rhaid i’r corff hwn sicrhau ein bod yn gweithredu’n fwy effeithiol yn unol â thermau’r refferendwm, pan wnaeth pobl Cymru ei phenderfyniad, er o fewn trwch blewyn, ynghylch y modd yr ydym yn gweithredu. Wel, mae rhaniadau mewn pleidiau eraill, yn sicr yn y Blaid Lafur; gwyddom fod barn Alun Pugh yn wahanol i un y Cabinet. Fodd bynnag, pe baem yn rhedeg y Cynulliad, fe wnaem bethau’n wahanol. Ni fyddem wedi cyhoeddi dyfodol Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru drwy ddatganiad gweinidogol. Byddem wedi cynnal dadl arno. Mae’n bwysig i’r sefydliad hwn allu cerdded cyn bod unrhyw gwestiwn o redeg. Ar hyn o bryd mae tystiolaeth nad yw’n gallu cropian hyd yn oed; gwneir penderfyniadau heb eu cyfeirio i’r Cynulliad. Felly, byddwn yn cymryd rhan ac mae’n bwysig inni wneud hynny. Cymerwn ran wrth gytuno ar y cylch gwaith. Fodd bynnag, cofiwch mai o drwch blewyn y pleidleisiodd y bobl o blaid y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Nid oes fawr o dystiolaeth neu ddim bod pobl am gael pwerau deddfu neu godi trethi i’r Cynulliad. Maent am inni weithredu gwasanaethau’n awr o fewn y pwerau sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd.

The First Minister: Some of your points were controversial, Nick, but I think that it will be accepted that some of your propositions should be tested by the commission. The proposition about effective delivery is important, and it should be tested. The issue about walking before you run is extremely important. You would hear that at supermarket checkouts, on factory floors and so on, in discussions on the Assembly anywhere in Wales. I am grateful for those comments, and regardless of whether I agree with them, I would be amazed if the commission, in its 18 months of life, did not test those propositions. They are vital to it.

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Yr oedd rhai o’ch pwyntiau’n ddadleuol, Nick, ond credaf y derbynnir y dylid profi rhai o’ch gosodiadau gan y comisiwn. Mae’r gosodiad am weithredu effeithiol yn bwysig, a dylid rhoi prawf arno. Mae’r mater ynghylch cerdded cyn rhedeg yn eithriadol o bwysig. Byddech yn clywed hynny wrth y mannau talu yn yr archfarchnad, ar loriau ffatrïoedd ac yn y blaen, mewn trafodaethau ar y Cynulliad mewn unrhyw fan yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y sylwadau hynny, a pha un a ydwyf yn cyd-weld â hwy neu beidio, byddwn yn synnu’n fawr os na fydd y comisiwn yn rhoi prawf ar y gosodiadau hynny yn ystod 18 mis ei fodolaeth. Maent yn hollbwysig iddo.

11:15 a.m.

I do not entirely accept your points about Ivor Richard. I am glad that you did not express strong dissent about his appointment. However, you noted that he is a Labour Party supporter, which is accurate. I believe that he has shown the requisite degree of independence from the Government. It is now three years or more since he left the UK Cabinet. I believe that he is halfway between being 100 per cent Labour Government loyalist, never departing from the party line, and an independent who is outside the party. He is the right kind of person in terms of having clout in Whitehall and Westminster given that many of the recommendations need to work. Requesting transfers of functions or primary legislative powers means that someone must relinquish power and that someone else must gain it: power that Whitehall and Westminster gives up is gained by the Assembly. Experience and clout in Whitehall and Westminster is needed as well as knowledge of Wales.

Nid wyf yn llwyr dderbyn eich pwyntiau am Ivor Richard. Yr wyf yn falch na wnaethoch fynegi anghytundeb cryf am ei benodi. Fodd bynnag, gwnaethoch nodi ei fod yn gefnogwr i’r Blaid Lafur, sy’n gywir. Credaf ei fod wedi amlygu’r graddau gofynnol o annibyniaeth ar y Llywodraeth. Mae tair blynedd a mwy bellach ers iddo adael Cabinet y DU. Credaf ei fod hanner ffordd rhwng bod yn un sy’n ymlynu’n llwyr wrth y Llywodraeth Lafur, gan ddilyn arweiniad y blaid bob tro, a bod yn un annibynnol sydd y tu allan i’r blaid. Mae’n berson addas o ran meddu ar ddylanwad yn Whitehall a San Steffan o wybod y bydd yn rhaid i lawer o’r argymhellion weithio. Mae gofyn am drosglwyddo swyddogaethau neu bwerau deddfu sylfaenol yn golygu bod yn rhaid i rywun ildio pwer ac y bydd yn rhaid i rywun arall ei ennill: mae pwer a ildir gan Whitehall a San Steffan yn cael ei ennill gan y Cynulliad. Mae angen profiad a dylanwad yn Whitehall a San Steffan yn ogystal â gwybodaeth am Gymru.

You kindly mentioned the fact that I knew Ivor well during the period when he was a European Community commissioner and I was the head of the European Community Office in Wales. That is when I first met Ivor, got to know him well and developed a considerable respect for his diplomatic and negotiating skills. His experience on HMS Tiger with Ian Smith, at the United Nations, and within and outside Government makes him a quite unique figure. He is a figure similar to Ronnie Waterhouse, who conducted the Waterhouse inquiry, from Holywell in north Wales and Gareth Williams from Mostyn. They may come from small villages or towns in Wales such as Ammanford, Mostyn or Holywell, but they have shown that they can survive and prosper within the legal, constitutional and governmental world. That is why Ivor is an outstandingly good choice.

Cyfeiriasoch yn garedig at y ffaith fy mod yn adnabod Ivor yn dda yn ystod y cyfnod yr oedd yn gomisiynydd i’r Gymuned Ewropeaidd a minnau’n bennaeth Swyddfa’r Gymuned Ewropeaidd yng Nghymru. Dyna pryd y cyfarfûm ag Ivor gyntaf, a dod i’w adnabod yn dda a magu cryn barch tuag at ei fedrau diplomyddol a negodi. Mae ei brofiad ar HMS Tiger gydag Ian Smith, yn y Cenhedloedd Unedig, a’r tu mewn a’r tu allan i Lywodraeth yn golygu ei fod yn ffigwr cwbl unigryw. Mae’n ffigwr tebyg i Ronnie Waterhouse, a gynhaliodd ymchwiliad Waterhouse, o Dreffynnon yn y Gogledd a Gareth Williams o Fostyn. Er eu bod yn hanu o bentrefi neu drefi bach yng Nghymru fel Rhydaman, Mostyn neu Dreffynnon, maent wedi dangos eu bod yn gallu goroesi a ffynnu yn y byd cyfreithiol, cyfansoddiadol a llywodraethol. Dyna pam y mae Ivor yn ddewis eithriadol o dda.

Michael German: I welcome your statement today because, as you have said, this issue was a key feature of the partnership agreement between our parties, which my party is particularly keen to see and which is important to the people of Wales. The initiative that you have announced today is probably the most important constitutional initiative since the referendum and establishment of the National Assembly for Wales. It will take us further in a direction in which we can conduct a proper and solid debate on these issues across Wales. This is the beginning of a process which many, probably a majority, in the Chamber support. We know of Members from all parties who have expressed views supporting an attempt to sort out the Assembly’s legislative powers. I am pleased that the leader of the Welsh Conservatives has said that he wants to engage positively in this debate because it is important that there is a broad challenge for all politicians to deal with the current arrangements. Most Members accept that the current arrangements are not satisfactory and that they need to be amended. However, the commission must take the discussion beyond the Chamber. It must also engage with the broader social and civic life of Wales.

Michael German: Croesawaf eich datganiad heddiw oherwydd, fel y dywedasoch, yr oedd y mater hwn yn agwedd allweddol ar y cytundeb partneriaeth rhwng ein pleidiau, y mae fy mhlaid i’n arbennig o awyddus i’w gweld ac sy’n bwysig i bobl Cymru. Mae’n debyg mai’r fenter a gyhoeddasoch heddiw yw’r fenter gyfansoddiadol bwysicaf ers y refferendwm a sefydlu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Aiff â ni ymhellach i gyfeiriad lle y gallwn gynnal dadl briodol a sylweddol ar y materion hyn ledled Cymru. Dyma ddechrau proses y mae llawer, y mwyafrif yn ôl pob tebyg, yn y Siambr yn ei chefnogi. Gwyddom am Aelodau o bob plaid sydd wedi mynegi barn o blaid ymdrech i roi trefn ar bwerau deddfwriaethol y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn falch bod arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru wedi dweud ei fod yn dymuno cymryd rhan gadarnhaol yn y ddadl hon gan ei bod yn bwysig bod her gyffredinol i’r holl wleidyddion ddelio â’r trefniadau presennol. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r Aelodau’n derbyn nad yw’r trefniadau presennol yn foddhaol a bod angen eu newid. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r comisiwn fynd â’r drafodaeth y tu hwnt i’r Siambr. Rhaid iddo gysylltu hefyd â’r bywyd cymdeithasol a dinesig ehangach yng Nghymru.

The Assembly’s powers are not only limited, they have no consistency. It was drawn to my attention today that the important issue of the criteria for locating speed cameras in Wales is not determined by the National Assembly or by its Government but by Stephen Byers. We do not have the same control over the eye test regime in Wales as we have over the dental regime. These matters have vexed us over recent years. The commission now has the opportunity to straighten out the zig-zag line of our legislative settlement, to test the issue of the Assembly’s size, how it proportionally represents the people of Wales, and its ability to do the job that the people of Wales expects. Members from all parties have expressed views on those issues for change.

Yn ogystal â bod yn gyfyngedig, mae pwerau’r Cynulliad yn anghyson hefyd. Tynnwyd fy sylw heddiw at y ffaith bod mater pwysig y meini prawf ar gyfer lleoli camerâu cyflymder yng Nghymru yn un nad yw’n cael ei benderfynu gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol neu ei Lywodraeth ond gan Stephen Byers. Nid oes gennym yr un graddau o reolaeth dros y gyfundrefn profion llygaid yng Nghymru ag sydd gennym dros y gyfundrefn ddeintyddol. Mae’r materion hyn wedi achosi penbleth inni dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae cyfle’n awr gan y comisiwn i sythu llinell igam-ogam ein setliad deddfwriaethol, i roi prawf ar fater maint y Cynulliad, sut y mae’n cynrychioli pobl Cymru yn gyfrannol, a’i allu i wneud y gwaith y mae pobl Cymru’n ei ddisgwyl. Mae Aelodau o’r holl bleidiau wedi mynegi barn ar y materion hynny am unwaith.

A challenge exists for everyone in Wales and all those who want to see the devolution settlement move forward. That means that Members from all parties need to work to ensure that the case for change, if we believe that it exists, is conveyed as resolutely and completely as possible. There is a challenge for all those in Wales who are serious about devolution to ensure that the case, which I believe is absolute, is eventually put to Whitehall and Westminster in a robust and practical way, demonstrating widespread support throughout Wales. I ask you, Rhodri, to take this forward with all pace, to ensure that the commission gets underway and engages fully with political, civil and social life in Wales, so that the changes that many of us expect will be settled in place immediately the new Assembly term begins.

Mae her yn bodoli i bawb yng Nghymru a phawb sydd am weld y setliad datganoli’n symud ymlaen. Mae hynny’n golygu bod angen i Aelodau o’r holl bleidiau weithio i sicrhau y bydd y ddadl dros newid, os credwn fod un, yn cael ei chyfleu mor benderfynol a chyflawn ag y bo modd. Mae her i bawb yng Nghymru sydd o ddifrif ynghylch datganoli sicrhau y caiff yr achos, y credaf ei fod yn un diamod, ei gyflwyno yn y pen draw i Whitehall a San Steffan mewn modd cadarn ac ymarferol, gan ddangos bod cefnogaeth gyffredinol iddo ledled Cymru. Gofynnaf i chi, Rhodri, fwrw ymlaen â hyn mor fuan ag y bo modd, i sicrhau bod y comisiwn yn dechrau ar ei waith ac yn ymwneud yn llawn â’r bywyd gwleidyddol, dinesig a chymdeithasol yng Nghymru, fel y caiff y newidiadau y mae llawer ohonom yn eu disgwyl eu rhoi ar waith yn syth ar ddechrau tymor newydd y Cynulliad.

The First Minister: You are right to say that this will not work unless we engage the citizenry in Wales. That is why I have split the appointment process, to be done partially through soundings and consultation between Assembly parties, and partially by opening it up to public appointments, which may throw up citizens or experts who are famous professors of constitutional law. I do not know what the case will be, as they will come through the public appointment process in an independent way. As soon as the appointment process is over and the commission is up and running in the summer and the autumn, how to engage the citizenry will be a matter for the commission itself. I will not determine its work programme in advance; the commission must decide on that in the summer and get on with it, and report back in the autumn of 2003.

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Yr ydych yn iawn wrth ddweud na fydd hyn yn gweithio os na fyddwn yn cynnwys y dinasyddion yng Nghymru. Dyna pam yr wyf wedi rhannu’r broses penodi, i’w gwneud yn rhannol drwy holi ac ymgynghori ymysg pleidiau’r Cynulliad, ac yn rhannol drwy ei hagor i benodiadau cyhoeddus, a allai ddenu dinasyddion neu arbenigwyr sy’n athrawon enwog mewn cyfraith gyfansoddiadol. Ni wn beth a fydd yn digwydd, gan y byddant yn dod drwy’r broses penodi cyhoeddus mewn modd annibynnol. Cyn gynted ag y bydd y broses penodi ar ben a’r comisiwn yn gweithredu yn yr haf a’r hydref, mater i’r comisiwn ei hun fydd y modd i gynnwys y dinasyddion. Ni wnaf bennu ei raglen waith ymlaen llaw; rhaid i’r comisiwn benderfynu ar hynny yn yr haf a bwrw ymlaen, ac adrodd yn ôl yn hydref 2003.

You used a good phrase, as did Nick in a slightly different way, in asking whether there is a case for change. If there is a case, what is it and how should it be tested? How do we ensure that, when politicians say that there is a case for change, the citizens are not talking a different language? That is what the commission will have to test. I do not want to over-commit the Assembly in advance by saying what we think its conclusions should be in 18 months’ time. There is no point in asking Ivor Richard and his appointed colleagues to conduct an inquiry if we already know what the answer will be. We must give the commission the opportunity to get on with its work and report back to our successor body in the autumn of next year.

Gwnaethoch ddefnyddio ymadrodd da, fel y gwnaeth Nick mewn modd ychydig yn wahanol, wrth ofyn a oes dadl dros newid. Os oes dadl, beth ydyw a sut y dylid ei phrofi? Sut y byddwn yn sicrhau, pan ddywed y gwleidyddion fod dadl dros newid, nad yw’r dinasyddion yn siarad iaith wahanol? Dyna’r hyn y bydd yn rhaid i’r comisiwn ei brofi. Nid wyf am or-rwymo’r Cynulliad ymlaen llaw drwy ddweud yr hyn y credwn y dylai ei gasgliadau fod ymhen 18 mis. Nid oes diben gofyn i Ivor Richard a’i gydweithwyr penodedig gynnal ymchwiliad os gwyddom beth yw’r ateb eisoes. Rhaid inni roi cyfle i’r comisiwn fynd ymlaen â’i waith ac adrodd yn ôl i’r corff a fydd yn ein dilyn yn yr hydref y flwyddyn nesaf.

David Melding: I welcome the establishment of this commission. I also welcome the appointment of its chair. I have worked with Lord Richard and know that his CV is very distinguished, particularly in relation to my work with him in his former role as a UN ambassador and a European commissioner. I respect him greatly and know that he will strive vigorously to act in a non-partisan manner, which is essential to the authority of this commission. This is a wise and encouraging appointment.

David Melding: Croesawaf sefydlu’r comisiwn hwn. Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu penodi ei gadeirydd. Yr wyf wedi gweithio gyda’r Arglwydd Richard a gwn fod ei CV yn nodedig iawn, yn enwedig mewn cysylltiad â’m gwaith gydag ef yn ei rôl flaenorol yn llysgennad i’r Cenhedloedd Unedig a chomisiynydd Ewropeaidd. Yr wyf yn ei barchu’n fawr a gwn y bydd yn ymdrechu’n egnïol i weithredu’n amhleidiol, sy’n hanfodol i awdurdod y comisiwn hwn. Mae hwn yn benodiad doeth a chalonogol.

I hope that the commission will be charged with aiming to strengthen the British constitution in any of the recommendations that it decides to make, and that its aim will be to strike a greater balance in the constitution. Therefore, I hope that its terms of reference will allow the commission to consider our relations with, and the perception of, Westminster, as to the workings of devolution generally in Wales, and to look to the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly to see how those institutions have, through their primary legislative powers, added to, or detracted from, the unity of the British constitution.

Gobeithiaf y caiff y comisiwn ei ymddiried â’r gwaith o geisio cryfhau’r cyfansoddiad Prydeinig mewn unrhyw un o’r argymhellion y mae’n penderfynu ei wneud, ac mai ei nod fydd sicrhau mwy o gydbwysedd yn y cyfansoddiad. Felly, gobeithiaf y bydd ei gylch gorchwyl yn caniatáu i’r comisiwn ystyried ein cysylltiadau â San Steffan a’r canfyddiad ohoni, ar weithrediad datganoli’n gyffredinol yng Nghymru, ac ystyried Senedd yr Alban a Chynulliad Gogledd Iwerddon i weld sut y mae’r sefydliadau hynny, drwy eu pwerau deddfu sylfaenol, wedi ychwanegu at, neu leihau, undod y cyfansoddiad Prydeinig.

I also hope that the commission will be allowed to take a wide range of evidence across Wales, which will be important in local communities, and in England and in other parts of the United Kingdom. Will it be possible for other residents of England—obviously, Ivor lives in England—to become commissioners? I am thinking, for example, of top constitutional lawyers. It may be appropriate to allow such people to apply to become commissioners, as it would add a valuable insight.

Gobeithiaf y caniateir i’r comisiwn gymryd amrywiaeth eang o dystiolaeth ledled Cymru, a fydd yn bwysig mewn cymunedau lleol, ac yn Lloegr a rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig hefyd. A fydd modd i drigolion eraill Lloegr—wrth gwrs, mae Ivor yn byw yn Lloegr—ddod yn gomisiynwyr? Yr wyf yn meddwl, er enghraifft, am y cyfreithwyr cyfansoddiadol mwyaf blaenllaw. Gallai fod yn briodol caniatáu i bobl o’r fath ddod yn gomisiynwyr, gan y byddai’n rhoi mewnwelediad gwerthfawr ychwanegol.

Will you give a reassurance that, if the commission decides that further powers are necessary—let us not beat about the bush in saying that that will mean some form of primary law-making power—any such recommendations, if adopted by the Assembly, will be the subject of a referendum? As the Assembly was endorsed by a referendum of the people of Wales, will the commission consider how any development could be possible unless it receives another endorsement through a Wales-wide referendum?

A wnewch gadarnhau, os penderfyna’r comisiwn fod angen pwerau pellach—gadewch inni beidio â hel dail a dweud y bydd yn golygu rhyw fath o bwer deddfu sylfaenol—y bydd unrhyw argymhellion o’r fath, os mabwysiadir hwy gan y Cynulliad, yn destun refferendwm? Gan fod y Cynulliad wedi’i gymeradwyo drwy refferendwm ymysg pobl Cymru, a wnaiff y comisiwn ystyried sut y gallai unrhyw ddatblygiad fod yn bosibl oni chaiff ei gymeradwyo eto drwy refferendwm ledled Cymru?

The First Minister: It would be a matter for the commission to recommend a further referendum, and then for us—or our successors, if we are not here—to consider in October 2003. We do not want to over-commit on that now. You made an important point that the greater the change, the greater the likelihood that you would see a referendum as being required. That is par for the course. The issue of law-making powers may or may not require a referendum. It would depend on how that would be viewed in October 2003, not in April 2002. You raised an interesting point about whether an address in England would disqualify people from applying for appointment through the public appointments unit procedure for the commission’s four or five other Members and those in the political soundings process. That is not a rule that we apply in the public appointments procedure. People from Wales who work in England may apply, or people with unique experience may be needed. It would depend on who the process threw up. I would not want to depart from established practice on that front.

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Mater i’r comisiwn fyddai argymell refferendwm pellach, ac wedyn i ni—neu ein holynwyr, os nad ydym yma—ei ystyried yn Hydref 2003. Nid ydym am orymrwymo ar hynny’n awr. Gwnaethoch bwynt pwysig sef mai po fwyaf y newid, mwyaf fyddai’r tebygolrwydd o weld angen refferendwm. Mae hynny’n naturiol. Efallai y bydd y mater o bwerau deddfu’n gofyn am refferendwm neu efallai na fydd. Byddai’n dibynnu ar y modd yr edrychid ar hynny yn Hydref 2003, nid yn Ebrill 2002. Gwnaethoch godi pwynt diddorol ynghylch a fyddai cyfeiriad yn Lloegr yn peri bod rhywun yn anghymwys i ymgeisio am benodiad drwy weithdrefn yr uned penodiadau cyhoeddus ar gyfer pedwar neu bum aelod arall y comisiwn a’r rhai yn y broses holi gwleidyddol. Nid yw honno’n rheol a gymhwyswn yn y weithdrefn penodiadau cyhoeddus. Caiff pobl o Gymru sy’n gweithio yn Lloegr ymgeisio, neu efallai y bydd angen rhai sydd â phrofiad unigryw. Byddai’n dibynnu pwy a ddeuai i’r golwg yn y broses. Ni fyddwn am ymadael â’r arfer sefydledig yn hynny o beth.

11:25 a.m.

This issue of taking evidence in England is interesting. I am certainly not charging Ivor Richard with progressing devolution in England. The implications for England are a matter for the commission, if it considers that to be important to complete the job. I have no presuppositions about not taking evidence in England, but that is a matter for the commission. It is not even part of the terms of reference. It is perhaps too detailed a question for us to discuss.

Mae’r mater o gymryd tystiolaeth yn Lloegr yn ddiddorol. Yn sicr, nid wyf yn ymddiried Ivor Richard â’r gwaith o hyrwyddo datganoli yn Lloegr. Mae’r goblygiadau i Loegr yn fater i’r comisiwn, os yw’n credu bod hynny’n bwysig i gwblhau’r gwaith. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw ragdybiaethau ynghylch peidio â chymryd tystiolaeth yn Lloegr, ond mae hynny’n fater i’r comisiwn. Nid yw’n rhan o’r cylch gorchwyl hyd yn oed. Efallai ei fod yn gwestiwn rhy fanwl i ni ei drafod.

I welcome, and endorse, your remarks in commending the choice of Ivor Richard. I had forgotten that your previous work with the United Nations Association would have brought you into contact with him.

Yr wyf yn croesawu ac yn ategu’ch sylwadau wrth gymeradwyo dewis Ivor Richard. Yr oeddwn wedi anghofio y byddai’ch gwaith blaenorol gyda Chymdeithas y Cenhedloedd Unedig wedi dod â chi i gysylltiad ag ef.

Alun Pugh: Rhodri, this statement is a wise step that has a realistic timetable. However, the Welsh Assembly Government has recently put forward some excellent Bills on audit, transport, housing and common land, and I am concerned that they will not see the light of day because they will not secure a place in the Westminster log jam. Ivor Richard is an excellent appointment, who has a great deal of experience from Rhodesia. Plaid Cymru might want a unilateral declaration of independence, but I do not and neither do the vast majority of the people of Wales.

Alun Pugh: Rhodri, mae’r datganiad hwn yn gam doeth sydd ag amserlen realistig. Fodd bynnag, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi cyflwyno rhai Mesurau rhagorol yn ddiweddar ar archwilio, trafnidiaeth, tai a thir comin, ac yr wyf yn bryderus na fyddant yn gweld golau dydd am na fyddant yn sicrhau lle yn nhagfa San Steffan. Mae Ivor Richard yn benodiad rhagorol, sydd â llawer o brofiad o Rhodesia. Efallai fod Plaid Cymru am gael datganiad unochrog o annibyniaeth, ond nid wyf fi na’r mwyafrif helaeth o bobl Cymru.

If this open-minded and independent commission concludes that this unsatisfactory state of affairs needs to be changed, will the Welsh Assembly Government ensure that this report does not gather dust?

Os daw’r comisiwn diduedd ac annibynnol hwn i’r casgliad bod angen newid y sefyllfa anfoddhaol hon, a wnaiff Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru sicrhau na fydd yr adroddiad yn hel llwch?

The First Minister: I can assure you that the report will not gather dust. I cannot say what the outcome will be, but I can guarantee that it will not gather dust if I have anything to do with it—that is up to the electors. We may all be out of office in October 2003; we could have a clean sweep of the incumbents, as has been known to happen in the political process.

Prif Weinidog Cymru: Gallaf eich sicrhau na fydd yr adroddiad yn hel llwch. Ni allaf ddweud beth fydd y canlyniad, ond gallaf roi sicrwydd na fydd yn hel llwch os bydd a wnelwyf fi ddim ag ef—mater i’r etholwyr yw hynny. Efallai y byddwn oll allan o rym yn Hydref 2003; efallai y bydd yr holl ddeiliaid presennol wedi’u hysgubo ymaith, oherwydd fe all hynny ddigwydd yn y broses wleidyddol.

You made an interesting point about Ivor’s experience in Rhodesia and UDI. I remember him telling me that, when he was a European commissioner, he had dinner, on the instructions of the British Government, with South African Prime Minister Vorster to see if he could help bring UDI to an end. At the dining table at his house in Cape Town, Vorster deliberately placed Ivor in a chair where he could see Robin Island in the distance through the window so that he could think about Nelson Mandela and the other inmates. People who have such unique experiences are priceless assets in considering constitutional change.

Gwnaethoch bwynt diddorol am brofiad Ivor yn Rhodesia a’r datganiad unochrog o annibyniaeth. Cofiaf ef yn dweud wrthyf, pan oedd yn gomisiynydd Ewropeaidd, iddo gael cinio, gan ddilyn cyfarwyddiadau Llywodraeth Prydain, gyda’r Prif Weinidog Vorster o Dde Affrica i weld a allai helpu i ddod â’r datganiad unochrog o annibyniaeth i ben. Wrth y bwrdd bwyd yn ei dy yn Nhref y Penrhyn, yr oedd Vorster wedi rhoi Ivor i eistedd mewn cadair yn fwriadol lle y gallai weld Robin Island drwy’r ffenestr yn y pellter fel y gallai feddwl am Nelson Mandela a’r carcharorion eraill. Mae pobl sydd â phrofiadau unigryw o’r fath yn asedau amhrisiadwy wrth ystyried newid cyfansoddiadol.